TexasCHLforum.com

Lambda Force wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:Also it's much easier to just become a reserve LEO and then 06/07 signs won't apply to you. I wouldn't go as far as carrying a concealed rifle in a briefcase unless I was Jason Bourne. It's comical really.

No. It's tragic.

It's both a tragedy and a travesty that "it's much easier to just become a reserve LEO and then 06/07 signs won't apply to you" than to get a LTC or carry a folding rifle. It's both a tragedy and a travesty that it's the LTC whose right to bear arms is infringed by [censored] who break their oath to defend the constitution.

"become[ing] a reserve LEO" is also beyond the ability of those of us who are either too old to be accepted, or too infirm to become a reserve LEO. Frankly, it was an idiotic and thoughtless response.... but some people speak without giving much thought to the effect of their words. Personally, I'm done discussing it with him. If he really wants to be a THAT guy, he's not going to listen to reason.

bblhd672 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:Also it's much easier to just become a reserve LEO and then 06/07 signs won't apply to you. I wouldn't go as far as carrying a concealed rifle in a briefcase unless I was Jason Bourne. It's comical really.

It's comical until a deranged person walks into a location where concealed and open carry of a handgun is prohibited. I'm sure that people who have been in those situations do not find the humor in it. Former Texas state Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp who was in the Luby's in Killeen in 1991 probably would disagree with your "comical" assessment.

Nightmare, I assure you that this old man is not trying to "play James Bond". I have NO illusions about being some kind of hero with a gun. What I am is unwilling to place my own safety in the hands of someone who has no plan to offset what they've done by disarming me. You're a cop. What are the average response times in your jurisdiction? I totally understand that, in an active shooter situation, I will not be able to get a folded carbine out of a briefcase and deployed anywhere near as fast as I can my handgun - assuming I'm allowed to have my handgun on me in that location - but I'm fairly certain that I can deploy the carbine before you or your brother officers show up in response to that same active shooter situation about 99.99% of the time.

I also realize that the protocol (for me) with any gun I have with me, is to put the gun away when I can hear the sirens nearby or see LEOs rolling up. I don't want to be taken for the active shooter. But neither do I want to be defenseless before first responders can arrive to secure the situation. FWIW, I'm NOT, for the most part, carrying the carbine with, because I usually have a handgun instead. For me, the carbine-in-a-case exists so that I can enter a Mall to shop when it is posted; or to enter a business that I have to be at, when it is posted, and I cannot carry my pistol inside.

It's condescending when, from your position as an LEO where you can carry your sidearm everywhere you go, into places that WE are barred from carrying, and then you call it "comical" and denigrate others as wannabe James Bonds because we are trying to figure out a way to remain armed, while still complying with the law. It smells of the "us versus them" attitude that some LEO have toward perfectly decent citizens who have done nothing wrong and violated no laws......and in fact, pay their salaries. Frankly, now that you can carry anywhere you want to, it comes way too easy to say stuff like that, and it comes off as arrogant.

In my previous post in this thread, I wrote that I was making the assumption that most cops are rational. For instance, I've had nothing but good encounters with LEOs here in Grapevine, who've treated me exactly as one ought to treat a good citizen. None of them have betrayed a lick of condescension yet. My advice to you is, don't be THAT guy. You haven't been LEO that long yet. It wasn't that long ago that you were just one of us. Don't forget where you came from.

Cynicism is fine. The job demands a certain amount of it if you want to be an effective cop. But disrespecting your fellow citizens is never good.....not even disrespecting people you have to lock up. Unless someone is breaking the law, you've no call to invalidate their reasons for wanting to be armed in a lawful manner.

Abraham, ok, I understand your question better. It isn't "what are the odds of discovery", it's "what would happen in the unlikely event of discovery"......am I right?

Partly, I would defer to Jusme, as he is/was LEO. FOR MY OWN PART, I assume that a rational cop, knowing that you had broken no law, and therefore could not arrest you, would warn you to no longer trespass the building. Here's my reason for that assumption. Consider the question, "who is likely to discover me", it probably isn't a cop......it would probably be one of two scenarios:

1. A representative of the business which you have entered somehow sees your carbine concealed deeply in your briefcase. The how of that assumption is that he/she was a thief, looking to steal something while you weren't looking, OR, you were really bad at concealing the weapon inside the briefcase, or were using a briefcase ill-suited for that purpose, and you were indiscreet when you opened it to retrieve something from it. THAT person would make a big fuss - "we don't allow guns in here, you'll have to leave immediately!!!", and I, being an intelligent man, would leave immediately. I'm outside before the police arrive. The police arrive, and if I have not already departed the property, acost me in the parking lot. I am questioned, and I explain that I indeed have a lawfully carried long gun inside my briefcase, that I complied with 30.06 and did not enter with a handgun, and that when asked to leave, I LEFT, and was on my way to my car when LEO showed up. If asked why I carried a carbine in there in the first place, I would have said it was because I couldn't lawfully carry my handgun, but I did not want to be disarmed for all the usual reasons. I would make sure to explain that I was there on business.....but that was the last time I would do business with a bunch of hysterics like that.
   
   I seriously that an LEO would arrest me at that point. (1) I had broken no laws that he could charge me with. (2) On being told to leave, I left, so that I would not be trespassing. (2) In the parking lot, I'm not violating any laws. And (4) I was about to drive away. In other words, I am solving the problem myself, and he doesn't have to deal with it. Consider all the paperwork and pain the butt it would be if he had to arrest me - versus simply letting me go - and still not making any kind of charge stick. Also consider the lawsuit that would result if he tried to railroad charges through.
   
   He lets me walk.
2. A representative of the business you've entered, again through your own indiscretion, somehow discovers your carbine inside your briefcase. He calls the police without saying anything to you, and does not tell you to leave. Police arrive and acost you in whatever location you're in.....say someone's office, or a meeting room. They're probably more wary. They question you aggressively. You explain yourself, say that you have violated no law, and that you didn't leave because you had no idea that you were being trespassed off the property; that if you had been told, you would have left; and you would like to leave now. If they bring up 30.06, tell them that you are not violating 30.06, but that you DO understand that you would have been violating 30.05....... except that you had not until this moment received effective notice from anyone, so you haven't violated 30.05 either. If the nice officers would like to escort you out of the building, you would appreciate it, since you don't do business with people who haven't got any sense so you have no intention of ever returning. If one of them wants to carry your briefcase on the way out, you should be OK with that. All of this conversation occurs before there is ever any need to cuff you, because you're a smart person, and you've been calm, reasonable, and truthful throughout the entire experience. Offer to the officers that you'd be happy to have the one carrying your briefcase acompany to your car, and put it in your trunk, if that would make them feel better the whole thing, and that you'd like to get back to your office, where you can begin finding a new vendor/client to replace the relationship you've just trashed.
   
   If they are rational, they'll let you walk. You've broken no law, you left without protest or resisting when trespassed, and you've been cooperative with their actions. Consider what happens if they decide to arrest you. You, being a rational person, do not resist arrest. You take the ride. You insist, as is your right, to know on what charge(s) you're being arrested. You cannot be charged with a violation of 30.06, as you weren't carrying a handgun - which that law is limited to covering. You cannot be charged with a violation of 30.05, as you immediately tried to leave upon receiving effective notice, which you had NOT received before entering the building. You can't be charged with a violation of 30.07 for the same reason as you can't be charged with violating 30.06.....no handgun involved at all. You can't be charged with disorderly conduct, because your conduct was not disorderly (the officers' own body cams will verify that). You can't be charged with carrying a concealed long gun, because there is no law against carrying a concealed long gun. You can't be charged with anything. What rational cop is going to take you down to the hoosegow, when he can't charge you with anything, and when your arrest means a bunch of paperwork for him?

All of the above assumes a rational police officer. There is always the possibility that you might run into a cop who disgraces the badge. But if that's the case, it's not going to matter where you are, or what you're doing. He/she will make up charges and toss you behind bars. But with a jerk like that, you don't have to be carrying any kind of gun, any which way, for that to happen. He just doesn't have to like the cut of your jib.

I think that, as long as you are discreet about it, especially if you're an old guy like me as I know you to be, then you really don't need to worry about it too much. Do like I did, and don't carry it where there is a high probability of being searched before entering an 06/07 posted location - such as a hospital - and go ahead and carry it where there is very little likelihood of being searched.....06/07 or not. And on the ridiculously small chance of discovery, stay calm and rational, and leave. The odds are that you'll be already out of the building before the cops can arrive - assuming they've been called.

Abraham wrote:Am I the only one to think if one is discovered by an LE officer (unlikely, but certainly not impossible) with a sub2K (or something similar) in a 30.06 posted location one might be taking "The Ride"?

Or, is everyone (but me...) convinced there's absolutely, positively, no possibility of a problem if one is discovered with a firearm in a 30.06 location, because technically speaking you're legal, cuz ya know, it's not a handgun, it's a rifle?

I hear where you're coming from, but how would I be discovered? It's just a briefcase/messenger bag. in any place I'm likely to be found (church, coffee shops, etc.), there's probably a half dozen almost like it nearby. The day before yesterday, when I went to visit my friend in the Emergency Room, I didn't bring the bag in because I know that I'd be checking in at a desk with armed security to get my pass, and they might want to search the bag. But that was a situation where I made the deliberate calculation that there was a substantial risk of the bag being searched.

But, and I'm not saying this ever happened, I might have easily carried a concealed pistol into the same hospital on both occasions when my grandkids were being born.....because there was no kabuki dance with security personnel involved to get into that part of the hospital. And if I had done such a thing, I would not have been discovered anyway, because I was just another new grandfather, an old guy who looks vaguely like Santa, with twinkling eyes and a kindly demeanor, visiting his son and daughter in law and new grandchild in the hospital.......not doing anything or dressed in such a way as to draw attention to himself. So again, had such a thing actually happened, there would have been no reason to stop and frisk me.....had I ever done such a thing......

But if it is just a regular business, without having to be checked in by armed security in order to enter, I'd be perfectly comfortable carrying the messenger bag past a 30.06 sign. Why? Because I'm going to be there on business.....not personal shopping reasons. I don't give my money to merchants who don't want me to carry. I won't go in there. But if I am acting in the name of my business, as one businessman doing business with another, and I need to go in, I'll enter.......with the messenger bag. And after all, why not? It will also contain my laptop, notebook, an iPad, various power cords and USB devices, etc., etc. It is completely possible to open the bag and retrieve objects without giving away the fact that there is a 9mm folded carbine in one of the pockets, which is closed by means of a Velcro strap. That way, I completely respect the property-owner's right to keep licensed handgun carry out of their place, without surrendering my own safety to their kabuki, and without violating the law.

My local coffee shop is posted 07, and I carry concealed in there all the time. They are not really "anti-gun" (I have a story to tell about what happened to me once in there), they just don't want open carry in there. (There is a larger reason for that, having little or nothing to do with the owner's personal view of the 2nd Amendment. He's a Christian, and he has deliberately built a business where other Christians will come into contact with people of other faith, or no faith, and begin to build the kinds of relationships that can eventually lead to non-Christians coming into relationship with Jesus. Many of those people, by virtue of their non-believing lifestyles, are also anti-gun, and he doesn't want to make them uncomfortable with hanging out there. He gets more than enough business from people who probably don't care one way or the other for it to not be a financial consideration. But his interest in spreading the gospel is, in very real terms, a "larger concern" than whether or not someone will be indignant because they can't open carry in his coffee shop.) Anyway, the place is often frequented by local LEOs (the coffee is really good). Why would one of them want to search me? I'm just another customer, and they're there to get coffee, just like I am. And within 25 ft of me, there must be 8 or 10 others with messenger bags or briefcases. It's a hang out kind of place, and like all the other customers, I'm just sitting there, minding my own business, talking with a friend, reading a book, or surfing the web or something. But even if it were posted 06 (which would keep me out of it anyway), why would I worry about my messenger bag being searched? The only thing that has changed is the signage out front. What's happening inside is still the same.........and I'm still not breaking the law.....

I have a cheap nylon laptop case, but I use it to carry guitar pedals and power sources, guitar cables, stuff like that..... Granted, the 511 bag looks more "tactical", but that's primarily the color. It's also available in black and in gray. My son has the black one, and it just looks like any other cordura nylon messenger bag. Personally, the color of mine doesn't bother me. Another thing that will fit in it, which I don't own yet, is a ballistic plate. That's coming soon.

bblhd672 wrote:To you guys who are carrying Sub2K in a briefcase - what kind of briefcase are you using? I have one that I've had for 20+ years that I used to carry to work everyday, now it just sits in the closet. Just a typical briefcase with two metal clasp/combination locks on it.

I have this one, but it's more like a messenger bag than a briefcase: 5.11 Rush Delivery Lima

At 11” high, 17” long, and 4” deep, the Lima Class RUSH Delivery Bag offers expanded capacity and fully customizable storage options that allow you to sort your gear effectively and efficiently. Built from ruggedized Nylon for superior resilience in any climate or environment, the RUSH Delivery Lima features a quick-draw compartment that provides accelerated access to a covert sidearm, a padded laptop sleeve to protect sensitive electronics, a quick-access admin panel keeps your keys, business cards, and flashlight within easy reach, and a main storage area with ample space for documents or accessories. The external surface of the RUSH Delivery Lima incorporates a wrap-around web platform compatible with MOLLE, 5.11 SlickStick®, and 5.11® TacTec System™ modular storage upgrades, while the cross-body stabilizing strap and ambidextrous design allow quick and easy shoulder switching.

I keep the carbine in the laptop pocket, because there's a velcro'd strap to keep it closed and less easily seen when the briefcase is open. There's still room for my 15" MacBook Pro, an iPad, a note pad, and other assorted stuff in the main pocket. There's a "covert" zipper pocket on the back side of it that is velcro lined for a CCW holster. There's a couple of side pockets that will hold water bottles. There's two zippered pockets in the cover flap, and then assorted other pockets all over the inside. It's really a well designed and practical bag. The folded length of the carbine is 16.25”. The pocket it sits in is .75" longer. The folded carbine is about 8" high, and the bag is 11" high. The width of the folded carbine is maybe a touch wider than a 9mm Glock pistol.

Heh heh.

bblhd672 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote: You have to actually see and handle the MI optic mount. It is as stable as mounting to a polymer forearm will allow it to be. If you attach a metal section of rail to the side of the polymer forend, the optic is still ultimately attached to a polymer forend, and whatever flex is inherent in the polymer forend is still going to affect your accuracy.

Seems that company recognizes the issue with the polymer forearm and has this stabilizer available:
http://www.performanceservicesmachining ... tabilizer/

I agree the Sub2K is a fun firearm. Whenever I take it out to the range someone usually comments about liking it.

I just bought $145 worth of upgrade parts from them, including that item.

bblhd672 wrote:What would the impact be on accuracy having a red dot sight mounted on the side rather than on the top? Obviously you'd have to turn the weapon to see through the red dot. Just curious if this is a viable alternative to the red dot mount that swivels out of the way from Midwest Industries?

I'd think it would be a bit awkard, but as long as the POI matched POA, it would be as accurate as that particular firearm/optic/mount combination is capable of. But I would be concerned about how it would affect ammo feeding, rather than the accuracy. You have to tilt the gun to one side or the other to operate it if the optic is oriented to the side of the forend rather than the top. Tilted to the left, with the ejection port up, it might not matter, I don't know. It might still feed OK if the new cartridge is being supported by the left side of the receiver. But tilted to the right like a lefty would do (I'm left-handed), with the ejection port facing downward, I don't have confidence that it would feed without jamming.

You have to actually see and handle the MI optic mount. It is as stable as mounting to a polymer forearm will allow it to be. If you attach a metal section of rail to the side of the polymer forend, the optic is still ultimately attached to a polymer forend, and whatever flex is inherent in the polymer forend is still going to affect your accuracy. The only way around it is to swap out the polymer forend for a metal one. There is such an item available for $149, plus the cost of the rail sections for it, if you need a rail to mount your optic. The problem with this unit is that adding a rail to the top prevents the carbine from being fully folded. So you'd still ultimately need something side-mounted, or at a 45º angle. I may someday buy one of those forends, but I don't think it will change how I use the gun right now, and I think that swapping out the rear sight for the larger diameter aperture sight would be a more significant upgrade than changing the forend would be.

The MI mount doesn't need a rail, it only needs an M-Lock section to mount to. It also doesn't seem to move on its swivel when deployed. The design, being a V-block, acts against that happening. You can make it swivel with your hand, but it wants to remain centered.

But even with a metal forend added, I'd still go with the side-mounted MI optic mount, because it is the one solution I've seen which allows the optic to remain mounted, while the carbine is fully-folded, without adding any bulk or significant width to the folded gun, while still having the optic vertical to the barrel when deployed.

I think in the end, as much fun as the sub2k seems to be, and as useful as it might be in a tactical situation, it still is what it is, and by nature includes a number of compromises.

I've been meaning to give those ETS Glock mags a look anyway.

NotRPB wrote:

rotor wrote:FYI, the Glock 33 round mag is on sale at Midway for $29.99 at the present time.

Thanks
I only have about 5 or 6 of them, unless the Government bans them like some States do that have logic impairments, and is at my door asking, in which case they all fell out of my boat ... (boat was in the back yard at the time, but I don't want to give out too much Information TMI )

I got mine at Natchez Shooting Supply - same price as at Midway. I have 6 or 7 of them too.

I found this: http://www.performanceservicesmachining ... ear-sight/.

• Larger .170″ sight aperture as compared to the .125″ original sight aperture.
• The first and best lever actuated rear sight for Kel Tec Sub 2000.
• Compatible with both the Generation 1 and Generation 2 models.
• Simple drop in installation. Instructions included.
• A longer pivot screw for use with a Kel Tec factory sling attachment is included.

Replace the plastic rear sight and aluminum pivot shaft on your Kel Tec Sub 2000 with a precision machined hard anodized aircraft grade aluminum combat peep sight / lever and stainless steel pivot shaft. The larger aperture size speeds target acquisition for close quarters, moving target, and low light shooting. The first and best lever actuated rear sight available as discussed on KTOG (Kel Tec Owners Group Forum). This sight will work in both the Generation 1 and Generation 2 models. This sight will raise automatically when the rifle is unfolded, but can then be lowered and raised again easily.

I am DEFINITELY going to buy this item. The OEM rear sight is way too small for my eyes.

NotRPB wrote:After reading a review:
http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com ... -2000.html
I'm Ordering myself a New Years present
Sub2000 Operating Handle
http://twisted.industries/product/sub20 ... ng-handle/
Style:

Slim+Stainless+Double+Finger

$29.99

Hmmmm....... that double finger charging handle is intriguing. I'll have to think about that one. Thanks for the suggestion.

DanD, I haven't used the optic at a range yet......just mounted it yesterday, less than an hour before putting up that post, so I don't have any idea if zero will shift. In their video review of the mount, MAC had no issues with it. What he DID say was that you won't be using it for long range use. I believe him, being myself an experienced long range shooter. But the optic feels as solidly mounted as any optic would be when mounted to a polymer rail, which necessarily includes some amount of Flex — whether or not you're using an M-Lok mount like mine, or a QD mount like yours. The fact is, that unless you're willing to use one of the very ignorant end QD mounts like a BOBRO (which I do use on my ARs and SCAR 17), most QD mounts do not have a return to zero that is all that good. The system I'm using on this carbine is adequate for the distances I might use this carbine at.....which will of course confirm on my next range trip. If I were involved in a situation that required greater accuracy at greater ranges, I would be using one of my rifles more suitable for that kind of use. I am 100% confident of hitting a man-sized target with the BUIS at 25 yards, 99% confidence at confident at 50 yards, and about 85-90% confident at 100 yards..... which is really at the practical limits of the platform. But.....the BUIS are a little too low on the gun for ease of use. The optic places an aiming device at roughly the same height above the bore as an equivalent optic on an AR15, so it is much more comfortable.

When I shot the carbine at the 25 yard line with the BUIS sights at the factory setting, the POI was considerably left and somewhat low of the POA. When I adjusted the windage to correct, the POA not only moved to the horizontal center, but it came up a small amount. I didn't adjust front sight for elevation at the time because I had neglected to bring a front sight tool with me. I will make that adjustment on my next range trip.

NotRPB wrote:TAM,
THANK YOU for those Pics!!!
After carrying with bolt open and hearing it release as I set my laptop case down once on a hospital floor, I too tied back my bolt but in a much, much more complicated way. I was thinking of grinding out a J-hooked type area of the tube the bolt goes into so it'd be harder for it to go forward without being pulled back over that area, and decided to not mess with it, I figured on having to use my knife to cut my paracord ...
I'll be emulating your method in a few minutes.

You're welcome! The piece of paracord came with the Midwest Industries mount.

ONE THING!!!! IF YOU DO THIS with the same kind of optic mount I have here, the directions in the MAC video (below) and on the Midwest Industries website say to ease the bolt forward with the loop in place, to let the charging handle stretch out the looped and knotted paracord you've made. You may have to tighten it up for it to be useful with the optic. I SAY remember to do this with the optic swiveled out of the way first! I didn't, and the charging handle fetched the front of the optic a nice hard whack! I was crestfallen. Plus, it was dang hard with the charging handle resting against the front of the optic to get it pulled back and locked again. What I did was pull it back just far enough, using the paracord to pull on it, to swivel the sight out of the way so that I could get my hand around knob and pull it all the way back and lock it. Fortunately, it whacked the optic and hit the end of the cord at the same moment. I had the rubber lens caps in place, and so nothing got hurt. Phew! But I did retie the knots after the cord had been stretched, so that it can't go that far forward again with the loop over the charging handle.