TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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philip964
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TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

#1

Post by philip964 »

https://news.yahoo.com/did-nothing-wron ... 57174.html

Made national news. Man of color. Apparently order to drop rifle and fatal shot were almost simultaneous. Officer responding to 911 call of man in robe at 12:30 with a rifle, shot the homeowner 5 times with his own City issued rifle.

He was on his front porch when he was killed. Did not point the rifle at police.

Lots of video from officers body cams and ring video.

Police or maybe Union says he followed his training.

Cautionary story on being outside on your property with a visible weapon.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by 03Lightningrocks »

This is a tricky one. According to that article, the man had fired rounds off at his own house. That in itself is deadly behavior. I can see how a very nervous cop would be afraid and possibly over react. You can't just stand outside, or inside, your home and start firing off random rounds. If it turns out he was not firing the rifle, we have a whole different story.

Random related story. At 25, I was awoken from a dead sleep by my then wife telling me in a terrified voice that someone was trying to break into our front door. I grabbed my 12 gage and took a position just around the corner from the entry hall. The door was open and it bumped twice against the chain lock. I screamed, get away from the door. It then did three more bumps and I fired off a round at head level. Police arrive just after. 911 tells her to instruct me to put the gun down. Cops knock on door and ask if this dog was mine. There was a lost cute dog running around in the front that was trying to get in. He thought it was his home. Cops told me to never fire a gun through a closed door and left. I learned a valuable lesson that night about controlling my fears. Thank god it was not some drunk guy confused about it being his home. It was a Fox and Jacobs hood and many of the homes looked exactly alike.

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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by OneGun »

I was following this story on another forum and reviewing the video released by the police. In the video, specifically the Ring camera, the man is firing his gun into his home and is talking into the house as if someone is there. We don't know if anyone was actually there. When the police arrive, the officer fires the instant he says to drop the gun. The lack of any time to react is confirmed by the BWC audio. He shoots the moment he commands the man to drop the gun. This is a point the DA will use to bring charges against the cop. We never learn if there was anyone in the house that may have run out the back. My only issue with the police response is the lack of time for the man to comply with the order to drop the gun. The man had no chance.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by 03Lightningrocks »

OneGun wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:36 pm I was following this story on another forum and reviewing the video released by the police. In the video, specifically the Ring camera, the man is firing his gun into his home and is talking into the house as if someone is there. We don't know if anyone was actually there. When the police arrive, the officer fires the instant he says to drop the gun. The lack of any time to react is confirmed by the BWC audio. He shoots the moment he commands the man to drop the gun. This is a point the DA will use to bring charges against the cop. We never learn if there was anyone in the house that may have run out the back. My only issue with the police response is the lack of time for the man to comply with the order to drop the gun. The man had no chance.
I can't disagree with that but the human factor can get you shot any time a cop draws a gun on you. When I was 16, I was riding my ten speed home late at night after getting off work. Plano was much smaller in those days. A cop pulled up fast on my rear, jumped from his car and ordered me to get on the ground. Soon I was surrounded by a half dozen cops with guns drawn. I was scared out of my mind. They suddenly all took off but one cop and told me to get up. Some guy had robbed a convenience store 15-30 minutes earlier. He put the lady in the cooler section and sliced her up with a knife. He escaped on a ten speed bike! Any one of those cops could have gotten scared or nervous and squeezed off a round. This stuff happens. The cop obviously must be fired at the least and have some kind of charges filed against him. They can't allow it to go unpunished. Whether it is accidental or not. That is if the evidence shows the cop screamed drop the gun and then fired right after that.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by 03Lightningrocks »

I have to say this. Sometimes we make mistakes and we learn from them. Other times we make mistakes that we pay for and everybody else learns from them. Standing in your front yard firing off a rifle is never a smart move. EVER! At least not if you live in a suburb. Now my SIL's parents lived on 80 acres out in Paradise Texas. It was not alarming to hear a gunshot go off outside at their place. It was often some coyote getting shot while trying to still the family chickens.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by Paladin »

philip964 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pm Police or maybe Union says he followed his training.

Cautionary story on being outside on your property with a visible weapon.
That is a sad commentary on police training.

Certainly a cautionary story. Bad all around. I have no idea, but the situation sounds like the man who was shot had a Psychotic Break... which when combined with the rifle being fired would understandably put police on edge. But as always the best way out of these things is to use cover and talk things out if possible.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by The Annoyed Man »

Paladin wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:42 pm That is a sad commentary on police training.
I just now tried to go back and find it and couldn’t, but earlier this morning I ran across a Tweet where the poster was rolling his eyes because an acquaintance of his who was in a police academy told him he was going away for 2 days of training.

He asked "What kind of training?"

His friend answered "Combat training." :roll:

A. It takes longer than 2 days to train for combat.

B. Combat against whom? Why do cops need to know how to engage in combat?

This story shows that the kind of training a person who thinks he’s going to "go into combat" against citizens receives is grossly deficient: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-de ... riff-says/.
The roommates, who were taking a break from playing video games with friends, were talking when Lawson "jokingly" pointed a handgun he though was unloaded at Walsh and pulled the trigger, Ivey said. A single round was fired and fatally struck Walsh, the sheriff said.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by Paladin »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Paladin wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:42 pm That is a sad commentary on police training.
I just now tried to go back and find it and couldn’t, but earlier this morning I ran across a Tweet where the poster was rolling his eyes because an acquaintance of his who was in a police academy told him he was going away for 2 days of training.

He asked "What kind of training?"

His friend answered "Combat training." :roll:

A. It takes longer than 2 days to train for combat.

B. Combat against whom? Why do cops need to know how to engage in combat?

This story shows that the kind of training a person who thinks he’s going to "go into combat" against citizens receives is grossly deficient: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-de ... riff-says/.
The roommates, who were taking a break from playing video games with friends, were talking when Lawson "jokingly" pointed a handgun he though was unloaded at Walsh and pulled the trigger, Ivey said. A single round was fired and fatally struck Walsh, the sheriff said.
Yes indeed. The military does some pretty intense training to prepare service members for combat and having worked with units training up for combat deployment, honestly there is only so much you can do for some of the 18-19 year olds. While I'm known for rapidly training individuals to high levels of firearms proficiency I think we can all recognize it that normally takes at least a decade to get particularly proficient with anything. The physical fitness training I did was well beyond what I hear about in typical Law Enforcement orgs, and you won't get that in 2 days. It is expected that typical National Guard units will required 90 days to train up for overseas deployment, and the National Guard units have already done a lot before that point.

Truly I believe that the original comment regarding police training was true. The police performance was consistent with their poor training. Paul Howe indicates there is just no motivation in law enforcement leadership to do better training.

For their part, the Gracie's have been trying to get law enforcement organizations to realize that better training(i.e. BJJ) equals better outcomes and less lawsuits... which pay for the improved training.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

#9

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Paladin wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:07 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Paladin wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:42 pm That is a sad commentary on police training.
I just now tried to go back and find it and couldn’t, but earlier this morning I ran across a Tweet where the poster was rolling his eyes because an acquaintance of his who was in a police academy told him he was going away for 2 days of training.

He asked "What kind of training?"

His friend answered "Combat training." :roll:

A. It takes longer than 2 days to train for combat.

B. Combat against whom? Why do cops need to know how to engage in combat?

This story shows that the kind of training a person who thinks he’s going to "go into combat" against citizens receives is grossly deficient: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-de ... riff-says/.
The roommates, who were taking a break from playing video games with friends, were talking when Lawson "jokingly" pointed a handgun he though was unloaded at Walsh and pulled the trigger, Ivey said. A single round was fired and fatally struck Walsh, the sheriff said.
Yes indeed. The military does some pretty intense training to prepare service members for combat and having worked with units training up for combat deployment, honestly there is only so much you can do for some of the 18-19 year olds. While I'm known for rapidly training individuals to high levels of firearms proficiency I think we can all recognize it that normally takes at least a decade to get particularly proficient with anything. The physical fitness training I did was well beyond what I hear about in typical Law Enforcement orgs, and you won't get that in 2 days. It is expected that typical National Guard units will required 90 days to train up for overseas deployment, and the National Guard units have already done a lot before that point.

Truly I believe that the original comment regarding police training was true. The police performance was consistent with their poor training. Paul Howe indicates there is just no motivation in law enforcement leadership to do better training.

For their part, the Gracie's have been trying to get law enforcement organizations to realize that better training(i.e. BJJ) equals better outcomes and less lawsuits... which pay for the improved training.
If only police would adopt the SF model of training indigs…helping to stand them up for independence… ;-)
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by rtschl »

Don't know if all of these videos are above, but they (Ring door bell and body cams) are in one place here. I still am not sure what the homeowner was doing by firing inside the house.

Officers checked the residence and did not locate anyone inside the residence.

Would be interested if someone got out a backdoor, were other doors or windows open, etc.

https://breaking911.com/bodycam-and-doo ... m-burglar/
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by Paladin »

rtschl wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:03 pm Don't know if all of these videos are above, but they (Ring door bell and body cams) are in one place here. I still am not sure what the homeowner was doing by firing inside the house.

Officers checked the residence and did not locate anyone inside the residence.

Would be interested if someone got out a backdoor, were other doors or windows open, etc.

https://breaking911.com/bodycam-and-doo ... m-burglar/
LEO failed to identify himself as police and yelled "drop the gun" as he was squeezing the trigger five times against a man that was not actually threatening anyone but the apparent imaginary burglar. We'll see how the local Soros DA responds... but in Travis county I'm guessing its not gonna go well for the officer from a criminal or civil perspective. Travis county has a unique way of prosecuting even good shootings.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

#12

Post by puma guy »

We will never know what the victim was responding to, real or imaginary. I think someone other than police need to investigate the officer's action, though. Even though I'm a big supporter of law enforcement, I think third parties unaffiliated with the PD should review shootings when there are circumstances such as this.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

#13

Post by flowrie »

Give the circumstances:

Report of a man with a rifle at a house.
Upon arrival the police hear two shots.
A man with a rifle appears at the corner of said house.
Although the man did not point the rifle directly at the LEO, the rifle is at a low ready in the general direction of the LEO.

So, is the LEO supposed to wait to see if the rifle goes from low ready to pointing at the LEO before engaging?
If so, what if the man does so and the LEO does shoot first and misses and the man with the rifle does not miss.

This is a close call but I side with the LEO.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

#14

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

flowrie wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:52 am Give the circumstances:

Report of a man with a rifle at a house.
Upon arrival the police hear two shots.
A man with a rifle appears at the corner of said house.
Although the man did not point the rifle directly at the LEO, the rifle is at a low ready in the general direction of the LEO.

So, is the LEO supposed to wait to see if the rifle goes from low ready to pointing at the LEO before engaging?
If so, what if the man does so and the LEO does shoot first and misses and the man with the rifle does not miss.

This is a close call but I side with the LEO.
I'd say that the officer should clearly identify themselves as law enforcement, order the man to drop his weapon and give him an opportunity to do so before shooting. Preferably done from a position of cover.

That said, I also think that leaving your home to investigate a possible burglar is dumb. There ain't nothin outside my house that is worth risking my life for.
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Re: TX: Austin man defending his home with rifle from burglars shot and killed by police

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Post by Paladin »

At some point it would seem that improved training would be an obvious and cost effective solution:

Arizona Town To Pay $8 Million to Widow of Daniel Shaver, Shot While Crawling Unarmed Toward Police
This is the second large lawsuit settlement Mesa has paid out for Shaver's death. According to the Arizona Republic, the town paid Shaver's parents $1.5 million in a separate lawsuit.
Brailsford claimed that killing Shaver and his subsequent prosecution gave him post-traumatic stress disorder. Because of this, he will receive a monthly pension check of $2,569.21 for the rest of his life, courtesy of Mesa taxpayers.
The Austin shooting looks almost respectable compared to some of the mess that's going on. This Arizona shooting is costing taxpayers over $10M that could have been better spent in shoot/no shoot scenario training.
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