Before I post the story let it be said I can’t hit the right side of a barn, but…
Returning 12 rounds and not having one hit the target. Just proves what stress can do to you.
FORT WORTH, Texas — Newly-released video shows a man shoot a Tarrant County Sheriff's Office deputy who was uniformed but off-duty, working security at a Fort Worth bank.
Fort Worth police chief Neil Noakes described the bank's security footage on Monday as "bone-chilling."
The video shows 35-year-old Leland Williams rush the Fort Worth Community Credit Union's counter and fire a handgun at deputy Brent Brown from nearly point-blank range. Noakes said it is safe to assume Williams intended to rob the bank.
YOUTUBE VIDEO
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:43 pm
by Paladin
I think I can forgive him for missing as the deputy was shot twice before he returned fire. Glad they have the crook in custody and the deputy is recovering. Could have been worse.
The deputy had solid mindset to return fire, hope his marksmanship training catches up
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:50 pm
by carlson1
Stress changes a lot of things. I was involved in a LE shooting in 1986-87 in Upsher County. It was during a manhunt for three felons
I never fired my weapon, but me and my partner were both shot at. I ran through a barb wire fence and cut myself really bad and had no clue I was even hurt. Nineteen stitches later in the ER my blood pressure was sky high. No one was hurt other than a dog from TDC and the fugitives surrendered, but I will never forget that feeling.
Stress changes everything.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 10:27 am
by Paladin
John Hearne has done some research into Who Wins, Who Loses, And Why:
Naturally John's research included looking at military training. One thing John Hearne found was that elite military units look for individuals whose hobbies include using fine motor skills under life and death pressure. Those activities include climbing and racing motorcycles. I can tell you that I discovered the same many years ago and John Hearne is exactly right.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:19 am
by Ruark
My CHL instructor cited many instances where this happened - LEOs emptying their magazines point blank and missing every shot. Happens all the time. I think a LOT of people out there have utterly no clue what it's like to be in this situation. You can't see, you can't think, you can't move, you can't breathe. That's why it's really critical to do draw-and-fire drills (dryfire, SAFELY of course) until you can do it instantly, without thinking.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:28 pm
by Keith B
This is a perfect example of panic mode reaction. Even if you’ve trained and trained for it, the adrenaline will be flowing and muscle control will be all over the place.
I alway shake my head at those who say they don’t carry one in the chamber “because they have practiced and can ‘rack one in’ within a half second’. Their practice is usually not drawing from concealment, and they are preparing to shoot. Add that it’s a total surprise and they have to start from zero, and they’ll be lucky to get drawn, much less chamber a round and fire before they’ve had multiple rounds headed their way.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:03 pm
by Rafe
A timely article posted today at Force Science by Dr. William Lewinski; it's a summary of a presentation he gave at the 2023 International Association of Chiefs of Police Conference: https://www.forcescience.com/2023/12/ac ... rformance/.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:46 pm
by Paladin
Rafe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:03 pm
A timely article posted today at Force Science by Dr. William Lewinski; it's a summary of a presentation he gave at the 2023 International Association of Chiefs of Police Conference: https://www.forcescience.com/2023/12/ac ... rformance/.
In fact, when a high level of arousal (often measured by pulse beats per minute (bpm)) is combined with sufficient skill, performance can be enhanced.
Yep. Jim Cirillo documented that in his first gunfight he actually shot better than he could under any other circumstances. But he was also a highly trained shooter before the fight.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:55 pm
by Paladin
After analyzing how officers performed during the high-stress portion of the 15-minute scenario, we found two discrete performance clusters. Officers with tactical training, military experience, and/or experience in critical incidents performed very effectively (perceptually, cognitively, and tactically). Those without that relevant training had significantly impaired performance with a high level of perceptual, cognitive, and behavioral disorganization.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:12 pm
by Paladin
In the 90s, we saw the exercise community move away from the negative aspects of stress and focus on how arousal could benefit performance. The police community focused on positive self-talk, breath regulation, mental rehearsals, and “when / then thinking to avoid emotional recoiling in the face of unexpected challenges. From the 2000s through today, we’ve highlighted the benefits of arousal on focus and performance.”
“As Dr. Murray has explained in his research and training, officers need skills to mitigate physiological responses that can interfere with focus and performance. But equal to that, officers need to develop their skills to the point of automaticity, interpret their environments as challenges rather than threats, and learn to be goal-directed rather than stimulus-directed. We no longer want to leave officers believing that elevated arousal states and heart rates mean they have done something wrong, or that something is wrong with them.
Sadly, most peace officers (excluding SWAT) only fire their weapons at and maybe just before qualifying twice a year unless things have changed in the last few years. Few go through any type of stress shooting training. That and the amount of adrenalin during a shoot out alone can lead to all of the missed shots, let alone the fact that this officer had been shot twice. Fortunately, he didn't hit anyone else with his missed shots.
My son in law was LEO in Alvin several years ago and he started shooting IDPA just to get some additional practice. I have great respect wit all LEO's but think they should all train a lot more in "real world scenarios" for their own protection.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:37 am
by cherokeepilot
My experience over the years is that most LEOs shoot like most people. Stressfire hinders accurate fire for most people regardless of their occupation. I still remember reading an after action report of over a dozen officers including some swat and metro officers arresting a druggie gang enforcer hit man in a Lincoln SUV firing over 600 rounds at the truck being driving away from the officers. Enforcer with his lawyers turned himself in..
Community was shot up...the bunch hiding the enforcer. Most officers were carrying Beretta 92s.
Kinda interesting and funny...73s
Thank you Lord, for the life of the officer.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:54 am
by carlson1
Legal question. When he was shooting at the suspect as the suspect ran away if he had hit him in the back would this be a different story since the shooter was running away? Was there still a threat?
Of course all of this is Monday morning quarterbacking.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:13 am
by The Annoyed Man
Ruark wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:19 am
My CHL instructor cited many instances where this happened - LEOs emptying their magazines point blank and missing every shot. Happens all the time. I think a LOT of people out there have utterly no clue what it's like to be in this situation. You can't see, you can't think, you can't move, you can't breathe. That's why it's really critical to do draw-and-fire drills (dryfire, SAFELY of course) until you can do it instantly, without thinking.
Decades ago, in about 1989-90, my wife and I lived across the street from a LA Co sheriff’s deputy who worked undercover narcotics. He described once having raided a crackhouse where the subject, who was considered armed and dangerous and for whom they had a warrant, had hidden himself behind the shower curtain in the (small) back bathroom. One of my friend’s fellow deputies went in the bathroom, discovered the perp behind the shower curtain, and a gunfight ensued at bad breath distance. 12 shots total were fired in rapid succession—6 from the deputy's revolver, and 6 from the perp's revolver—and nobody got hit…all within the confines of a small back bathroom. It was after that that my neighbor said he started carrying something with more capacity when he was working undercover.
Another time a year or two later, when I came home from work, my neighbor was sitting on the curb out front of his house, nursing a bourbon on ice. I sat down next to him and we chatted for a bit. I asked him how work was going, and he said he had shot and killed a drug dealer a week or so prior. It was on another crackhouse raid, and my neighbor was armed with a rifle this time (presumably a AR-15, but he never specified to me what it was). He said that the dealer was hidden in a back bedroom of this crackhouse. When Darryl (my neighbor) entered the bedroom with the rifle at the ready, the perp popped up from behind the bed with a pistol, and Darryl double-tapped him before he could get a shot off.
Darryl was enjoying that whiskey that day.
Re: Deputy Shot - Return 12 Rounds of Fire
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:58 am
by Keith B
carlson1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 12:54 am
Legal question. When he was shooting at the suspect as the suspect ran away if he had hit him in the back would this be a different story since the shooter was running away? Was there still a threat?
Of course all of this is Monday morning quarterbacking.
In the case of a police officer, they can use deadly force to stop a person fleeing from a felony.