KS:Witchta man dies after fake "Swatting" call

[Steve_M]

I watched the body cam video last night that was shown in real time and then it was slowed down. The guy had his hands up and then put them down by his waist and raised them rapidly and it appears he has something in them. It took me a few times watching it to get that though. The LEO didn't have a few times. They didn't have the luxury of putting everything in slow-mo. What got this innocent person shot was primarily the low life that made the call. Secondly though, what got him shot was him lowering his hands and bringing them back rapidly with what looks like something black in his hands and if you listened to the call, the swatter said he had a black pistol.

They need to bring a harsh and long punishment upon the low life that made the call.

[MechAg94]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

[carlson1]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

It is not just about rather they are in danger or fear of their lives they have a duty to protect others. There is no way from watching that video (distance and lighting are terrible) to know everything that took place. None of us were there nor have we had the privilege to see and hear all of the evidence. No different the BLM jumping to conclusions. We should not require the police to wait and be shot at first before they can respond and neither do I want to be the one waiting for someone to shoot first.

There are always lessons to learn. Prayers for this dear family and all involved.

[Steve_M]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

[ur]lhttp://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html[/url]

-Quote from article-

Livingston provided this account of what happened when Finch opened the door:

“Officers gave him several verbal commands to put his hands up and walk towards them. The male complied for a very short time and then put his hands back down to his waist. The officers continued to give him verbal commands to put his hands up, and he lowered them again.

“The male then turned towards the officers on the east side of the residence, lowered his hands to the waistband again, then suddenly pulled them back up towards those officers at the east.

“The officers on the north side of the street feared the male pulled a weapon from his waistband, retrieved a gun and was in the process of pointing it at the officers to the east. Fearing for those officers’ safety, the officer on the north side fired one round.”

-End quote-

I'm no ballistics expert but I'm quite sure had there been a pistol, it would be lethal at that distance. Whether or not he could have hit his target, we will never know. The LEO's didn't know either. As it turns out there was a LEO in the yard of the small house to the right. They were closer and as the quote points out the LEO that fired the shot feared for his fellow officers life. The video looks like to me that it backs this up.

Edited for spelling - I'm no grammar pro either

[srothstein]

I watched the video and I don't see everything in it that the news reports say was there. I do see some things that make no sense to me. I do not believe it is the whole video since it starts in the middle of the confrontation.

First, from the news reports and police briefing released, the victim was told to raise his hands and keep them above his head. He lowered them to his waist and was told again to raise them. He then lowered them again and when he brought them back up, he raised the quickly and with an object in them.

This leads the officer, who was told he had just committed murder, to think he was going to try to shoot at him. The camera looks like a long distance away, but it is just across the street. I would guesstimate this as no more than 25 yards (most streets are about 48 feet across - two lanes for traffic and two for parking with standard lanes being 12 feet), which is a distance most of us (almost all police at least) train to shoot pistols at. This would put the officer in direct danger. But the police spokesman said the officer in danger was tot he right of the victim, not across the street.

Which brings me to point two. I don't see an officer to the right of the victim. I do see a patrol car parked there. What makes no sense to me is why they would park a car there and then have the officer back away to across the street. Tactics would have said to not park that close to begin with, and not to leave the cover of the car to cross an open street.

I am not sure the officers were wrong to shoot, but I am also not sure they were right. I want to see the whole video and a closer view of it (or better image I can study) along with the officers's reports to know what happened and why. I know that will never happen, but I can suggest we all wait until the investigation is complete and hopefully the KBI will be asked to do it for transparency's sake.

I am sure the caller should be charged with manslaughter (under Texas law at least - I don't know what the law in California is). I think I could make a good case for murder. When he called the police he intended for this or something similar to happen to the other gamer. Under Texas law, the intent would transfer to this victim. This would be in addition to any charges of false report to a peace officer and any federal charges for interstate wire fraud. If all California law would go for is manslaughter, the federal charge might be the most punishment. Go for both in successive sentences then.


EDIT - Thanks Steve_M. Your post makes what I was posting a little more clear. You did it while I was writing too.

[Steve_M]

Which brings me to point two. I don't see an officer to the right of the victim. I do see a patrol car parked there. What makes no sense to me is why they would park a car there and then have the officer back away to across the street. Tactics would have said to not park that close to begin with, and not to leave the cover of the car to cross an open street.

I should clarify that the officer that was being perceived to be in danger is to the East or to the victims right as if he had just walked out the door. The main group of LEO's were to the north of the house across the street and it took me a bit to get my bearings. I was focused on the police car too and kept looking at the building or right next to the porch not seeing anything. If you watch it again, the LEO is in front of the small house to our left.

EDIT - Thanks Steve_M. Your post makes what I was posting a little more clear. You did it while I was writing too.

Your welcome - As I'm reminded from time to time by a dear friend - Every once in a while the sun shines down in on that root cellar I call a brain.

[WTR]

The 911 call states a one story house. Did they not recognize this was a 2 story?

[spectre]

The 911 call states a one story house. Did they not recognize this was a 2 story?

Don't confuse us with the facts!

[wheelgun1958]

I am sure the caller should be charged with manslaughter (under Texas law at least - I don't know what the law in California is). I think I could make a good case for murder. When he called the police he intended for this or something similar to happen to the other gamer. Under Texas law, the intent would transfer to this victim. This would be in addition to any charges of false report to a peace officer and any federal charges for interstate wire fraud. If all California law would go for is manslaughter, the federal charge might be the most punishment. Go for both in successive sentences then.

Methinks the only issue CA would have is the false report. If and when he is extradited to KS then it's a new ball game.

[bblhd672]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

It is not just about rather they are in danger or fear of their lives they have a duty to protect others. There is no way from watching that video (distance and lighting are terrible) to know everything that took place. None of us were there nor have we had the privilege to see and hear all of the evidence. No different the BLM jumping to conclusions. We should not require the police to wait and be shot at first before they can respond and neither do I want to be the one waiting for someone to shoot first.

There are always lessons to learn. Prayers for this dear family and all involved.

Do you have a number of innocent citizens gunned down, regardless of their color, before you think the police need to tone down the shoot first gather facts later trend?

Quote from another website:

Think about that; in the land of the free, your possession of a weapon in hand when answering the door to your house can be a death penalty imposed by the government agent at the door. The ease with which the state agent can deal maiming and death with not so much as a day in a cage is at severe odds with any non-badged American who dares to defend themselves in a genuine life or death situation.

[MechAg94]

Innocent until proven guilty goes both ways. If it applies to the officer, it should apply to the citizens. The cops don't have a right to treat everyone they encounter as a lethal threat.

[carlson1]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

It is not just about rather they are in danger or fear of their lives they have a duty to protect others. There is no way from watching that video (distance and lighting are terrible) to know everything that took place. None of us were there nor have we had the privilege to see and hear all of the evidence. No different the BLM jumping to conclusions. We should not require the police to wait and be shot at first before they can respond and neither do I want to be the one waiting for someone to shoot first.

There are always lessons to learn. Prayers for this dear family and all involved.

Do you have a number of innocent citizens gunned down, regardless of their color, before you think the police need to tone down the shoot first gather facts later trend?

No, but you can go to the Officers Down Page and find out how many Police have been killed protecting citizens.

[OlBill]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

It is not just about rather they are in danger or fear of their lives they have a duty to protect others. There is no way from watching that video (distance and lighting are terrible) to know everything that took place. None of us were there nor have we had the privilege to see and hear all of the evidence. No different the BLM jumping to conclusions. We should not require the police to wait and be shot at first before they can respond and neither do I want to be the one waiting for someone to shoot first.

There are always lessons to learn. Prayers for this dear family and all involved.

Should we require them to see a weapon before they shoot?

[Pawpaw]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

It is not just about rather they are in danger or fear of their lives they have a duty to protect others. There is no way from watching that video (distance and lighting are terrible) to know everything that took place. None of us were there nor have we had the privilege to see and hear all of the evidence. No different the BLM jumping to conclusions. We should not require the police to wait and be shot at first before they can respond and neither do I want to be the one waiting for someone to shoot first.

There are always lessons to learn. Prayers for this dear family and all involved.

Should we require them to see a weapon before they shoot?

That is precisely what has been required of our troops in a combat zone. At various times, they have been ordered not to fire until after they were fired upon.

I do realize the police have a difficult and dangerous job, but the USA is not a combat zone. If one of our troops had shot an unarmed person in Afghanistan or Iraq, he could expect a very long vacation to that big hotel in Kansas.

[parabelum]

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

It is not just about rather they are in danger or fear of their lives they have a duty to protect others. There is no way from watching that video (distance and lighting are terrible) to know everything that took place. None of us were there nor have we had the privilege to see and hear all of the evidence. No different the BLM jumping to conclusions. We should not require the police to wait and be shot at first before they can respond and neither do I want to be the one waiting for someone to shoot first.

There are always lessons to learn. Prayers for this dear family and all involved.

Should we require them to see a weapon before they shoot?

That is precisely what has been required of our troops in a combat zone. At various times, they have been ordered not to fire until after they were fired upon.

I do realize the police have a difficult and dangerous job, but the USA is not a combat zone. If one of our troops had shot an unarmed person in Afghanistan or Iraq, he could expect a very long vacation to that big hotel in Kansas.

^^^^This ^^^^

Frustrating to see combat vets rotting in Leavenworth for shooting incident in combat zone, but see a cop walk free after gunning down a crawling man on his belly, or shooting a woman in a decent mid class neighborhood in MN, just few recent ones.
Many more even that don’t even make it to news.

When one of fellow ltc’ers does something stupid or criminal, I speak up against it. If I see a fellow fireman do something stupid or criminal, I speak up. What’s right is right and what’s wrong is wrong.

You can support police and be against this thuggery,they are not mutually exclusive and yes, I believe that some officers are just as much of thugs as a gangbanger. Just having a badge doesn’t make someone “above” all and everyone else.

I just don’t hear much of an outrage from LE circles, even my own cuisin has gone mute, and that concerns me.