Trespassing? It depends who you are.

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Oak Threeper
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Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Oak Threeper » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:51 pm

CNN reported Saturday that, at a Starbucks location in Philadelphia, PA, management asked two individuals who were not customers to leave. The two individuals refused, apparently stating they were going to wait for a friend to arrive; these non-customers additionally asked to use Starbucks’ restroom facilities and were refused.

Philadelphia Police Commissioner Richard Ross said that “after being seated, they decided that they needed to use the restroom. Starbucks said that, according to their company policy, they do not allow non-paying members of… the public to come in and use the restroom. And so, they then asked these two males to leave, these two males refused to leave, and the police were called.”

Ross further said that, when officers arrived they politely asked the men to leave three times, informing them they were trespassing. The two men refused and were arrested.


More at https://artvoice.com/2018/04/15/race-in ... ss-arrest/

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Bitter Clinger
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Bitter Clinger » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:30 pm

So, you are supposed to hold it until after you receive your drink? There should be a sign to that effect, something like:

"All potential patrons, regardless of race, creed, gender, animal spirit guide, etc., should ensure that they enter the premises with an empty bladder or refrain from making room for additional liquids until after receiving service. Patrons with catheters, urinary tract infections or other issues that may lead to full bladder feelings or incontinence are asked to provide a written, notarized letter from their doctor if there is an express need to avail yourselves of our not so public rest room facilities. Oh, and have a nice day".

And that is why I avoid Starbucks. One more left wing liberal two faced business that charges far more than the value delivered. EoR.
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BBYC
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby BBYC » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:39 pm

Oak Threeper wrote:Ross further said that, when officers arrived they politely asked the men to leave three times, informing them they were trespassing. The two men refused and were arrested.

If they were OCing and the police told them to leave three times, and the OCers refused and were arrested, I don't think many here would be sympathetic to the OCers despite this being a gun forum. They had multiple opportunities to leave peacefully without being arrested and they made a choice to bait the cops and use in-your-face tactics instead.
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Bitter Clinger
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Bitter Clinger » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:00 pm

BBYC wrote:
Oak Threeper wrote:Ross further said that, when officers arrived they politely asked the men to leave three times, informing them they were trespassing. The two men refused and were arrested.

If they were OCing and the police told them to leave three times, and the OCers refused and were arrested, I don't think many here would be sympathetic to the OCers despite this being a gun forum. They had multiple opportunities to leave peacefully without being arrested and they made a choice to bait the cops and use in-your-face tactics instead.


There is nothing in the article to indicate that they were OCing. Nice try.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:22 pm

Two well dressed men sitting calmly in a Starbucks (per witness statements and the arrest video) asked to use the bathroom. The manager refused since they had not yet bought anything. Legally OK, but against company policy. The manager then asked them to leave and they refused. Manager called the cops.

Replace the description of 2 black men with two white women, and this would not have happened. It just would not have. Starbucks is very facilitating to folks who want to sit there and not actively buy things. You can walk into a Starbucks pretty much anywhere and find people conducting business meetings, or just sitting on their computer taking advantage of the free Wi-Fi.

This manager was within his/her legal rights, but was violating corporate policy per their CEO. And this manager exercised extremely poor judgment, to say the least.

The two men were at fault for refusing to leave. They should have left this private business as soon as the manager asked them to do so.
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby imkopaka » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:52 pm

BBYC wrote:
Oak Threeper wrote:Ross further said that, when officers arrived they politely asked the men to leave three times, informing them they were trespassing. The two men refused and were arrested.

If they were OCing and the police told them to leave three times, and the OCers refused and were arrested, I don't think many here would be sympathetic to the OCers despite this being a gun forum. They had multiple opportunities to leave peacefully without being arrested and they made a choice to bait the cops and use in-your-face tactics instead.


Soccerdad1995 wrote:Two well dressed men sitting calmly in a Starbucks (per witness statements and the arrest video) asked to use the bathroom. The manager refused since they had not yet bought anything. Legally OK, but against company policy. The manager then asked them to leave and they refused. Manager called the cops.

Replace the description of 2 black men with two white women, and this would not have happened. It just would not have. Starbucks is very facilitating to folks who want to sit there and not actively buy things. You can walk into a Starbucks pretty much anywhere and find people conducting business meetings, or just sitting on their computer taking advantage of the free Wi-Fi.

This manager was within his/her legal rights, but was violating corporate policy per their CEO. And this manager exercised extremely poor judgment, to say the least.

The two men were at fault for refusing to leave. They should have left this private business as soon as the manager asked them to do so.



Why are so many people so quick to replace facts with hypotheticals all of a sudden? That's a great way to start a fight. This is a nice forum - let's keep it that way. :thumbs2: :grouphug
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JustSomeOldGuy
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:58 pm

Two observations.

1) based on the video, I wouldn't call them 'well dressed'. https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/14/us/philadelphia-police-starbucks-arrests/index.html

2) I've only been in a half dozen Starbucks, all here in the wilds of the Rio Grande Valley. They all have bathrooms that you just walk in to. Are the bathrooms in Philadelphia Starbucks like the gas stations bathrooms of my youth? Kept locked, and you have to go ask the attendant for the key, which is usually chained to a hubcap or a length of 2x4 so you can't unintentionally walk off with the key?
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cyphertext
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby cyphertext » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:02 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:So, you are supposed to hold it until after you receive your drink?


They didn't order a drink. Had they ordered something, this might not have been an issue.


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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby cyphertext » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:06 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:Two well dressed men sitting calmly in a Starbucks (per witness statements and the arrest video) asked to use the bathroom. The manager refused since they had not yet bought anything. Legally OK, but against company policy. The manager then asked them to leave and they refused. Manager called the cops.

Replace the description of 2 black men with two white women, and this would not have happened. It just would not have. Starbucks is very facilitating to folks who want to sit there and not actively buy things. You can walk into a Starbucks pretty much anywhere and find people conducting business meetings, or just sitting on their computer taking advantage of the free Wi-Fi.

This manager was within his/her legal rights, but was violating corporate policy per their CEO. And this manager exercised extremely poor judgment, to say the least.

The two men were at fault for refusing to leave. They should have left this private business as soon as the manager asked them to do so.


We don't know if it would have happened to two white women or not. Does Starbucks have a policy to just let folks loiter in their shop? Take up space and services without being a paying customer? If I paid for a $5 cup of coffee and there were no places to sit due to freeloaders, I doubt I would be back... seems like you would not want to entice folks to just hang out without buying any of your products.


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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby cyphertext » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:10 pm

Seems like Starbucks hasn't always been so welcoming to having people just camp out in their shops...

http://www.businessinsider.com/coffee-shops-are-banning-laptops-2013-7

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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Grundy1133 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:12 pm

i used to go to starbucks and sit in the parking lot and jack their wifi.
actually I'd go across the street and use my 10dBi antenna to jack their wifi. lol
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:16 pm

imkopaka wrote:Why are so many people so quick to replace facts with hypotheticals all of a sudden? That's a great way to start a fight. This is a nice forum - let's keep it that way. :thumbs2: :grouphug


OK, stick to the facts.

Starbucks is a place where people routinely sit around for hours while not actively consuming things they have bought.

In the video, the men were "neatly" dressed, meaning they were not wearing rags or ripped up clothing.

The men were calm and restrained in the video even while being arrested.

Witnesses claimed that the men did nothing to cause a commotion.

The CEO of Starbucks has stated that this manager acted contrary to company policy.

The manager refused to let the men use the bathroom, ordered them to leave, and called the police when they refused to do so.

None of these facts were "replaced" in my original post. And my "hypothetical" was based on actual observations of the treatment of folks in Starbucks locations. I have no idea whether this manager has a history of calling the police to arrest people who sit in this restaurant without buying things. I suppose it is possible that this happens all the time at this location.

IMHO, the manager exercised extremely poor judgment, at best. And the men should have left when they were asked to do so. As our President once famously said about another incident, there were bad actors on both sides.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:22 pm

cyphertext wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:Two well dressed men sitting calmly in a Starbucks (per witness statements and the arrest video) asked to use the bathroom. The manager refused since they had not yet bought anything. Legally OK, but against company policy. The manager then asked them to leave and they refused. Manager called the cops.

Replace the description of 2 black men with two white women, and this would not have happened. It just would not have. Starbucks is very facilitating to folks who want to sit there and not actively buy things. You can walk into a Starbucks pretty much anywhere and find people conducting business meetings, or just sitting on their computer taking advantage of the free Wi-Fi.

This manager was within his/her legal rights, but was violating corporate policy per their CEO. And this manager exercised extremely poor judgment, to say the least.

The two men were at fault for refusing to leave. They should have left this private business as soon as the manager asked them to do so.


We don't know if it would have happened to two white women or not. Does Starbucks have a policy to just let folks loiter in their shop? Take up space and services without being a paying customer? If I paid for a $5 cup of coffee and there were no places to sit due to freeloaders, I doubt I would be back... seems like you would not want to entice folks to just hang out without buying any of your products.


Fair enough. I'm sure it happens all the time, and if so the majority of those arrested should be white women given their customer demographics. It should be easy enough to find the multitude of news reports supporting this.

Yes, people sit at Starbucks locations with their computers open while they conduct work or surf the internet. They do this long after they have had a reasonable amount of time to consume their drink. But we don't need to guess about their company policy. The CEO of the company has publicly stated that the manager was wrong in this case.

BTW, I don't disagree with you about this being a dumb policy. I also get irritated waiting for a table at a restaurant while people who have finished their meal sit and have a conversation. But that is policy at Starbucks.
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Bitter Clinger
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby Bitter Clinger » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:34 pm

cyphertext wrote:
Bitter Clinger wrote:So, you are supposed to hold it until after you receive your drink?


They didn't order a drink. Had they ordered something, this might not have been an issue.


Thanks for pointing out the obvious and avoiding answering the question.
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cyphertext
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Re: Trespassing? It depends who you are.

Postby cyphertext » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:36 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:Two well dressed men sitting calmly in a Starbucks (per witness statements and the arrest video) asked to use the bathroom. The manager refused since they had not yet bought anything. Legally OK, but against company policy. The manager then asked them to leave and they refused. Manager called the cops.

Replace the description of 2 black men with two white women, and this would not have happened. It just would not have. Starbucks is very facilitating to folks who want to sit there and not actively buy things. You can walk into a Starbucks pretty much anywhere and find people conducting business meetings, or just sitting on their computer taking advantage of the free Wi-Fi.

This manager was within his/her legal rights, but was violating corporate policy per their CEO. And this manager exercised extremely poor judgment, to say the least.

The two men were at fault for refusing to leave. They should have left this private business as soon as the manager asked them to do so.


We don't know if it would have happened to two white women or not. Does Starbucks have a policy to just let folks loiter in their shop? Take up space and services without being a paying customer? If I paid for a $5 cup of coffee and there were no places to sit due to freeloaders, I doubt I would be back... seems like you would not want to entice folks to just hang out without buying any of your products.


Fair enough. I'm sure it happens all the time, and if so the majority of those arrested should be white women given their customer demographics. It should be easy enough to find the multitude of news reports supporting this.

Yes, people sit at Starbucks locations with their computers open while they conduct work or surf the internet. They do this long after they have had a reasonable amount of time to consume their drink. But we don't need to guess about their company policy. The CEO of the company has publicly stated that the manager was wrong in this case.

BTW, I don't disagree with you about this being a dumb policy. I also get irritated waiting for a table at a restaurant while people who have finished their meal sit and have a conversation. But that is policy at Starbucks.

Maybe people of other ethnicities leave when asked by the manager and/or the police.

As far as it being "policy", I'm not convinced. I don't find it listed as a policy on the Starbuck's policies web page, but I do find many stories of Starbucks covering up outlets as well as refusing to allow non paying "customers" to use the rest room. Also find conflicting stories on Reddit... several folks claiming that Starbucks security has told them to not allow loitering in their stores for safety reasons. One also states that there is a policy on how to handle loitering and asking them to leave... Looks to me like the CEO is playing CYA since the race card has been played.
Last edited by cyphertext on Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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