HB 3639 - SB 1581

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baldeagle
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby baldeagle » Fri May 20, 2011 2:55 pm

warhorse10_9 wrote:
baldeagle wrote:
warhorse10_9 wrote:baldeagle, I completely understand how upset you are, I am upset to. Instead of taking out your frustration on Senator Wentworth or other people who actually supported the bill the entire time. I would look at the people who didn't.

Why? There will always be opposition. Supporters aren't really supporters if they can't get it done. Results are what matter, not rhetoric. And the Republicans have utterly failed at producing results. Why, then, should they get a pass?

Again, I will bring up the point of the tables being turned. Are you saying that in the event the Republicans had a minority of seats that you would vote them out of office since they couldn't pass the legislation you wanted.

That is NOT what I am saying. The Republicans had the majority and couldn't get it done. What good are they? We might was well have 31 Democratic Senators.
warhorse10_9 wrote:[Senator Wentworth and other supporters did all they could to pass this legislation given the circumstances. You cannot stall the entire legislative session for one piece of legislation.

Sorry, but that's not true. The Republicans COULD have told the Dems, either this bill comes to a vote or none of yours will. 2/3rds works both ways. But the Republicans paid lip service to campus carry and CHOSE not to fight for it. Oh well, we didn't get it done just doesn't cut it any more. If you can't get it done, get the heck out of office and let someone who WILL get it done take over.

Again I ask, why did we elect Republicans to a majority? So they could get played by minority? Give me a break. I'm sick and tired of namby pamby politicans who claim they believe in things but don't have the guts to see them through.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Heartland Patriot » Fri May 20, 2011 3:02 pm

All you folks talking about "clean-sweeping" better hold your darned horses and THINK. IF you really care about things like the Second Amendment, the right to self-defense, Castle Doctrine, and Concealed Carry, you darned well better THINK before you go voting for someone with a "D" instead of an "R" behind their name. Maybe once upon a time, there were those in that other party who held favorable viewpoints on the things I listed above, but that time has pretty much passed. Are there "bad actors" within the ranks of those who call themselves Republican? OBVIOUSLY...but why would I want to vote out someone who I agree with 75% or 80% of the time or more, to "teach them a lesson" just to help someone who I only agree with 10% of the time, or not at all? This state could end up like California, do you really want that? I sure as heck don't...I was stationed out there for a total of 10 years between two assignments, and I made darned sure the first day I could after I "retired" from active duty, I packed the family up and got our behinds back to Texas. Yeah, I'm pretty darned mad about this not going through, and I don't care for the back room stuff, either. But, there are a couple of folks, if we'd have had more solid people in certain seats instead of them, that could have made the difference in the FIRST place, when these bills were stand-alone. Once again, THINK...and target your efforts next time...and maybe we can finally get back some of the rights that belong to us law-abiding citizens. But we sure as the dickens won't if that other party wins a majority.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby megs » Fri May 20, 2011 3:05 pm

baldeagle wrote:But the Republicans paid lip service to campus carry and CHOSE not to fight for it. Oh well, we didn't get it done just doesn't cut it any more. If you can't get it done, get the heck out of office and let someone who WILL get it done take over.

+1

Also, if I understand how it works, the Republican majority picked Straus knowing his history.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Fri May 20, 2011 3:08 pm

Hoi Polloi wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I understand you are upset with the outcome; so am I. But you don't have a clue what you are saying or what else was being attempted. It was not a dead issue when campus-carry was as added to SB5 or SB1581. An attempt was made to make it work, but it failed. This happened to us last session when Tommy Merritt was chairman of the House Public Safety Committee. We had to add things to the DPS sunset bill to get them passed.

Sen. Wentworth has been a strong supporter of gun owners and he's been a champion of campus-carry for two sessions.

Chas.

Charles,

I notice that your tone has changed regarding Campus Carry. You now say "the outcome," refer to it only in the past tense, and say the attempts to make it work failed. Do you believe Campus Carry is now dead despite a super majority in favor of it in the House and a majority in favor in the Senate?


Yes, campus-carry is dead; it died with the point-of-order called on SB1581 in the House.

Chas.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Keith B » Fri May 20, 2011 3:09 pm

JJVP wrote:
baldeagle wrote:Charles, I understand that you have to work with these jerks and so you can't say anything bad about them. I can. I'm a citizen of this state, and I deserve fair and open representation. Bills should get fair and open debate on the floor of the chamber, not back room deals and secret meetings and shenanigans with rules that we the citizens are not privy to.

We elected an overwhelming number of Republicans this last election. We SHOULD have gotten our issues passed. We didn't. That says all that I need to know about politics and the legislature. It's a foul, stinking mess of stuff not worthy of a republic and it needs to be overhauled if the people are ever to have their rights restored. The people who serve in the legislature should be embarrassed to show their faces in public after participating in this farce.

I won't be following any more of this. It invokes the gag reflex. How you can stand to be intimately involved in it is beyond me.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

We need to send the whole lot of them to the unemployed ranks. I am getting more and more disappointed (= sick and tired) with the republican party. They talk a good talk, but when the excrement hits the fan they fold like the cheap suits they are. At least the demicrats, no matter how much you hate their views, stand by what they believe in, no matter how stupid those views might be. They hold on and push what they want, darn the torpedoes.

It is time to clean house and start over. Vote them ALL out. :mad5 :mad5 :mad5


That is one of the most harmful things you could do. A legislature full of newbies with no clue how to handle bills would be a total catastrophy and you would get NOTHING passed. Everyone would be trying to get their own agendas through and there would be no long term realtionships (good OR bad), so no one would be partnering up to work through issues. :banghead:
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Fri May 20, 2011 3:11 pm

baldeagle wrote:
Owens wrote:So who are these 2 turncoat senators? THEY need to be given the opportunity to obtain other employment.

Some things definitely need to be changed. This outcome is totally ridiculous. No reason for it to have happened this way.

I wonder though if we would say the same thing if we used some of the same tactics to stop something we don't like.

Senators Lucio and Gallegos. You also have some flaming hypocrites. Senator Zaffirini, who is vehemently opposed to campus carry, along with Lucio and Gallegos, voted for politicians to carry whereever they want. You can't rise to a higher level of hypocrisy than that.


What is Sen. Gallegos' track record for gun owners? Do you know? Do you care?

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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby megs » Fri May 20, 2011 3:30 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:What is Sen. Gallegos' track record for gun owners? Do you know? Do you care?

Chas.

He opposed a bill that would have allowed women to carry guns on campus to defend ourself from rapists.

What more do I need to know?
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby baldeagle » Fri May 20, 2011 3:33 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
baldeagle wrote:
Owens wrote:So who are these 2 turncoat senators? THEY need to be given the opportunity to obtain other employment.

Some things definitely need to be changed. This outcome is totally ridiculous. No reason for it to have happened this way.

I wonder though if we would say the same thing if we used some of the same tactics to stop something we don't like.

Senators Lucio and Gallegos. You also have some flaming hypocrites. Senator Zaffirini, who is vehemently opposed to campus carry, along with Lucio and Gallegos, voted for politicians to carry whereever they want. You can't rise to a higher level of hypocrisy than that.


What is Sen. Gallegos' track record for gun owners? Do you know? Do you care?

Chas.

What's his track record? He voted AGAINST campus carry and FOR legislators carrying. What else do I need to know?
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby baldeagle » Fri May 20, 2011 3:34 pm

Heartland Patriot wrote:All you folks talking about "clean-sweeping" better hold your darned horses and THINK. IF you really care about things like the Second Amendment, the right to self-defense, Castle Doctrine, and Concealed Carry, you darned well better THINK before you go voting for someone with a "D" instead of an "R" behind their name. Maybe once upon a time, there were those in that other party who held favorable viewpoints on the things I listed above, but that time has pretty much passed. Are there "bad actors" within the ranks of those who call themselves Republican? OBVIOUSLY...but why would I want to vote out someone who I agree with 75% or 80% of the time or more, to "teach them a lesson" just to help someone who I only agree with 10% of the time, or not at all? This state could end up like California, do you really want that? I sure as heck don't...I was stationed out there for a total of 10 years between two assignments, and I made darned sure the first day I could after I "retired" from active duty, I packed the family up and got our behinds back to Texas. Yeah, I'm pretty darned mad about this not going through, and I don't care for the back room stuff, either. But, there are a couple of folks, if we'd have had more solid people in certain seats instead of them, that could have made the difference in the FIRST place, when these bills were stand-alone. Once again, THINK...and target your efforts next time...and maybe we can finally get back some of the rights that belong to us law-abiding citizens. But we sure as the dickens won't if that other party wins a majority.

Now you're being silly. We're talking about throwing them out in the primaries. We're not stupid. Please don't treat us like we are.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby baldeagle » Fri May 20, 2011 3:37 pm

Keith B wrote:That is one of the most harmful things you could do. A legislature full of newbies with no clue how to handle bills would be a total catastrophy and you would get NOTHING passed. Everyone would be trying to get their own agendas through and there would be no long term realtionships (good OR bad), so no one would be partnering up to work through issues. :banghead:

This is the kind of thinking that got us in the present situation. We don't need politicians running our legislature. We need citizens who serve briefly, and for the people. The argument that newly elected representatives can't get anything done is the product of politicians convincing the public that only someone who has served a long time can produce results. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that the long-serving politicians are the ones who are screwing things up. Fresh blood and a steady turnover will keep them listening to the ones who elect them. If it takes a long time to become an effective legislator, than perhaps the PROCESS is screwed up and needs to be simplified?
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Jasonw560 » Fri May 20, 2011 3:41 pm

When campus carry came up to a vote as an amendment to SB 5, it got 19 ayes (Reps. minus Ogden) and 12 nays (Dems. plus Ogden).

When it was voted on as a stand-alone bill, it was defeated by the minority because two Dems. ( probably a combo of Lucil, inojosa, or Gallegos) who reneged on their vote. That vote was either 19-12 or 20-11. I forget.

86 reps. signed on to HB 750. Those were Repiblicans.

I'm pretty sure HB 750 failed to surface from Calendars because Straus didn't want it to.

Look at who voted for SB 321.

All of them aren't paying lip service. Many of the Reps. staffers I talked to said they were honestly trying to get HB 750 out of Calendars. The problem was at the top. When Straus was campaigning for Speaker, many more conservative republicans were warning others about him. They fell on deaf ears.

Don't throw the proberbial baby out with the bathwater.
Last edited by Jasonw560 on Fri May 20, 2011 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby hirundo82 » Fri May 20, 2011 3:51 pm

Jasonw560 wrote:When campus carry came up to a vote as an amendment to SB 5, it got 19 ayes (Reps. minus Ogden) and 12 nays (Dems. plus Ogden).

19 aye--Reps except Ogden, plus Whitmire.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Jasonw560 » Fri May 20, 2011 4:00 pm

hirundo82 wrote:
Jasonw560 wrote:When campus carry came up to a vote as an amendment to SB 5, it got 19 ayes (Reps. minus Ogden) and 12 nays (Dems. plus Ogden).

19 aye--Reps except Ogden, plus Whitmire.

That's right. I forgot about that. Thanks.

Sp not all Dems. Are bad. Some, I dare say, are DINOs. :mrgreen:
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Fri May 20, 2011 4:17 pm

I'm mad, frustrated, and disappointed just like everyone else. When the point-of-order was sustained on SB1581, I saw 3 years of work spiral down the political toilet. Alice and the NRA lobbyist felt the same way, perhaps even worse. I've drafted then deleted three posts and this probably isn't the best time for me to "talk" about this session. I'm mad at key people in Austin and I don't want to say something I regret and offend friends here on TexasCHLforum. I do want to make these general statements.

Everything that could possibly be done for campus-carry was done. Senator Wentworth battled harder for this legislation than most legislators do for any bill. The 2/3 rule in the Senate is and always has been a controversial subject. Many years ago we used it to block anti-gun legislation. In recent years, it has worked against us, but not often. I still don't like it.

I want to be candid about the campus-carry bills this session. While it's easy to point to two Senators and say they cost us campus-carry, that's not necessarily accurate. The truth is the opposition to campus-carry was absolutely huge and it was constant. For every pro campus-carry call, fax, or email sent, there were hundreds in opposition. And it never stopped; the calls and emails were coming to the very end. In all my years of legislative work, I've never seen the level of opposition to a gun bill, or any other bill for that matter. For those who watched the hearings in the House and Senate, the daily opposition ran just as strong.

The real irony is that some of the strongest opposition came from the very people we were trying to help -- college students and faculty. That's a hard fact to ignore when you are an elected official. I have no idea why it was so much stronger this session than last, and it certainly wasn't John Woods, though he'll likely take credit for it. He simply doesn't have the influence at the student/faculty level, much less with the deep pocket donors to universities who opposed the bills just as strongly.

It's clear there is a lot of educating that needs to be done before campus-carry passes. We have to remember that the general public simply doesn't care about this issue and the idea of "guns in school" still strikes fear in the hearts of many of those who are not as well educated on the facts of concealed carry and self-defense as are those in the active shooting community. It's not their fault, nor ours, it just the way it is. We have to change that through education.

There is a clear problem in the House and I'll report on that later. For now, let's all just take a step back, cool off, and plan calmly for the 2012 election and the 2013 legislative session. To do otherwise is an exercise in futility and we may damage relationships so vital to success in future sessions.

To the extent some of my posts may have already offended some, I truly apologize. Even grizzled old trial lawyers can get testy now and then. As always, thanks for your support of Texas gun owners.

Chas.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby 4copas » Fri May 20, 2011 4:42 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I'm mad, frustrated, and disappointed just like everyone else. When the point-of-order was sustained on SB1581, I saw 3 years of work spiral down the political toilet. Alice and the NRA lobbyist felt the same way, perhaps even worse. I've drafted then deleted three posts and this probably isn't the best time for me to "talk" about this session. I'm mad at key people in Austin and I don't want to say something I regret and offend friends here on TexasCHLforum. I do want to make these general statements.

Everything that could possibly be done for campus-carry was done. Senator Wentworth battled harder for this legislation than most legislators do for any bill. The 2/3 rule in the Senate is and always has been a controversial subject. Many years ago we used it to block anti-gun legislation. In recent years, it has worked against us, but not often. I still don't like it.

I want to be candid about the campus-carry bills this session. While it's easy to point to two Senators and say they cost us campus-carry, that's not necessarily accurate. The truth is the opposition to campus-carry was absolutely huge and it was constant. For every pro campus-carry call, fax, or email sent, there were hundreds in opposition. And it never stopped; the calls and emails were coming to the very end. In all my years of legislative work, I've never seen the level of opposition to a gun bill, or any other bill for that matter. For those who watched the hearings in the House and Senate, the daily opposition ran just as strong.

The real irony is that some of the strongest opposition came from the very people we were trying to help -- college students and faculty. That's a hard fact to ignore when you are an elected official. I have no idea why it was so much stronger this session than last, and it certainly wasn't John Woods, though he'll likely take credit for it. He simply doesn't have the influence at the student/faculty level, much less with the deep pocket donors to universities who opposed the bills just as strongly.

It's clear there is a lot of educating that needs to be done before campus-carry passes. We have to remember that the general public simply doesn't care about this issue and the idea of "guns in school" still strikes fear in the hearts of many of those who are not as well educated on the facts of concealed carry and self-defense as are those in the active shooting community. It's not their fault, nor ours, it just the way it is. We have to change that through education.

There is a clear problem in the House and I'll report on that later. For now, let's all just take a step back, cool off, and plan calmly for the 2012 election and the 2013 legislative session. To do otherwise is an exercise in futility and we may damage relationships so vital to success in future sessions.

To the extent some of my posts may have already offended some, I truly apologize. Even grizzled old trial lawyers can get testy now and then. As always, thanks for your support of Texas gun owners.

Chas.


Thanks Chas, I needed that. Cool off time started.
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