HB 3639 - SB 1581

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srothstein
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby srothstein » Fri May 20, 2011 10:04 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I'm mad, frustrated, and disappointed just like everyone else. When the point-of-order was sustained on SB1581, I saw 3 years of work spiral down the political toilet. Alice and the NRA lobbyist felt the same way, perhaps even worse. I've drafted then deleted three posts and this probably isn't the best time for me to "talk" about this session. I'm mad at key people in Austin and I don't want to say something I regret and offend friends here on TexasCHLforum. I do want to make these general statements.

Everything that could possibly be done for campus-carry was done. Senator Wentworth battled harder for this legislation than most legislators do for any bill. The 2/3 rule in the Senate is and always has been a controversial subject. Many years ago we used it to block anti-gun legislation. In recent years, it has worked against us, but not often. I still don't like it.

I want to be candid about the campus-carry bills this session. While it's easy to point to two Senators and say they cost us campus-carry, that's not necessarily accurate. The truth is the opposition to campus-carry was absolutely huge and it was constant. For every pro campus-carry call, fax, or email sent, there were hundreds in opposition. And it never stopped; the calls and emails were coming to the very end. In all my years of legislative work, I've never seen the level of opposition to a gun bill, or any other bill for that matter. For those who watched the hearings in the House and Senate, the daily opposition ran just as strong.

The real irony is that some of the strongest opposition came from the very people we were trying to help -- college students and faculty. That's a hard fact to ignore when you are an elected official. I have no idea why it was so much stronger this session than last, and it certainly wasn't John Woods, though he'll likely take credit for it. He simply doesn't have the influence at the student/faculty level, much less with the deep pocket donors to universities who opposed the bills just as strongly.


Charles, from what I was able to read and observe about this session, Sen. Wentworth did more for us with this bill than most politicians do in their entire career. I obviously am not as knowledgeable about how things could be done as you, but I certainly admired his knowledge and skill as he worked around the roadblocks. That the bill got out of the senate was a minor miracle, considering the opposition.

The house was able to kill the bill and I have my personal suspects that I will do everything I can to work against in the future. But this is clearly not the fault of Sen. Wentworth.

And I also agree that there was massive opposition to the bill and it was well organized. In addition to the normal opposition of the politically appointed university heads, there was quite a bit of student opposition. It seems to me that despite the efforts of the pro groups on campus, the anti groups were better organized and able to get more students out and vocal about the bill. I put the blame for that more on the media coverage, which was very slanted. It made it seem as if the student opposition greatly outnumbered the pro, even though I think it was much more evenly split in my opinion - no more than 60-40 against. But I am used to the media being an opponent of any pro-gun bill.

It's clear there is a lot of educating that needs to be done before campus-carry passes. We have to remember that the general public simply doesn't care about this issue and the idea of "guns in school" still strikes fear in the hearts of many of those who are not as well educated on the facts of concealed carry and self-defense as are those in the active shooting community. It's not their fault, nor ours, it just the way it is. We have to change that through education.


I do have an idea on the educating the legislators. There are two doctoral criminal justice programs in the state, one of which is very interested in research. In addition, there are several sociology programs also looking for research topics. One of the problems we had this time is the scare tactics and feelings people used as arguments. I think a proper academic report could show the legislators that the pro-gun side is the way to go. It would also help counter the university administrators politically by asking for their evidence (which they don't have) and their critical thinking skills. Since we unfortunately have two years now to prepare for this debate again, can we try to get the legislature to fund some research into this - maybe even order a subcommittee to study it as part of their between session activities. If the legislature won't (or can't, knowing the current budget) can we see if TSRA or the NRA can get some grant money for this - either from their funds, other foundations, or even putting some pressure on the federal DOJ for the grant money. I think the study should focus more on regular crime on campus and how licensed carry promotes self-defense in other places. We can avoid the topic of school massacres altogether and do a reasonable study.

There is a clear problem in the House and I'll report on that later. For now, let's all just take a step back, cool off, and plan calmly for the 2012 election and the 2013 legislative session. To do otherwise is an exercise in futility and we may damage relationships so vital to success in future sessions.

To the extent some of my posts may have already offended some, I truly apologize. Even grizzled old trial lawyers can get testy now and then. As always, thanks for your support of Texas gun owners.

Chas.


There is an old saying we might need to consider: Don't get made - get even. We can all calm down and look at the specifics of this situation. I agree that planning for the 2012 elections might be the critical part to planning for the 2013 session.

And don't worry about getting testy. You have been more calm on this board than many of us. You are certainly entitled to vent a little too.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Jasonw560 » Sat May 21, 2011 6:12 am

srothstein wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I'm mad, frustrated, and disappointed just like everyone else. When the point-of-order was sustained on SB1581, I saw 3 years of work spiral down the political toilet. Alice and the NRA lobbyist felt the same way, perhaps even worse. I've drafted then deleted three posts and this probably isn't the best time for me to "talk" about this session. I'm mad at key people in Austin and I don't want to say something I regret and offend friends here on TexasCHLforum. I do want to make these general statements.

Everything that could possibly be done for campus-carry was done. Senator Wentworth battled harder for this legislation than most legislators do for any bill. The 2/3 rule in the Senate is and always has been a controversial subject. Many years ago we used it to block anti-gun legislation. In recent years, it has worked against us, but not often. I still don't like it.

I want to be candid about the campus-carry bills this session. While it's easy to point to two Senators and say they cost us campus-carry, that's not necessarily accurate. The truth is the opposition to campus-carry was absolutely huge and it was constant. For every pro campus-carry call, fax, or email sent, there were hundreds in opposition. And it never stopped; the calls and emails were coming to the very end. In all my years of legislative work, I've never seen the level of opposition to a gun bill, or any other bill for that matter. For those who watched the hearings in the House and Senate, the daily opposition ran just as strong.

The real irony is that some of the strongest opposition came from the very people we were trying to help -- college students and faculty. That's a hard fact to ignore when you are an elected official. I have no idea why it was so much stronger this session than last, and it certainly wasn't John Woods, though he'll likely take credit for it. He simply doesn't have the influence at the student/faculty level, much less with the deep pocket donors to universities who opposed the bills just as strongly.


Charles, from what I was able to read and observe about this session, Sen. Wentworth did more for us with this bill than most politicians do in their entire career. I obviously am not as knowledgeable about how things could be done as you, but I certainly admired his knowledge and skill as he worked around the roadblocks. That the bill got out of the senate was a minor miracle, considering the opposition.

The house was able to kill the bill and I have my personal suspects that I will do everything I can to work against in the future. But this is clearly not the fault of Sen. Wentworth.

And I also agree that there was massive opposition to the bill and it was well organized. In addition to the normal opposition of the politically appointed university heads, there was quite a bit of student opposition. It seems to me that despite the efforts of the pro groups on campus, the anti groups were better organized and able to get more students out and vocal about the bill. I put the blame for that more on the media coverage, which was very slanted. It made it seem as if the student opposition greatly outnumbered the pro, even though I think it was much more evenly split in my opinion - no more than 60-40 against. But I am used to the media being an opponent of any pro-gun bill.

It's clear there is a lot of educating that needs to be done before campus-carry passes. We have to remember that the general public simply doesn't care about this issue and the idea of "guns in school" still strikes fear in the hearts of many of those who are not as well educated on the facts of concealed carry and self-defense as are those in the active shooting community. It's not their fault, nor ours, it just the way it is. We have to change that through education.


I do have an idea on the educating the legislators. There are two doctoral criminal justice programs in the state, one of which is very interested in research. In addition, there are several sociology programs also looking for research topics. One of the problems we had this time is the scare tactics and feelings people used as arguments. I think a proper academic report could show the legislators that the pro-gun side is the way to go. It would also help counter the university administrators politically by asking for their evidence (which they don't have) and their critical thinking skills. Since we unfortunately have two years now to prepare for this debate again, can we try to get the legislature to fund some research into this - maybe even order a subcommittee to study it as part of their between session activities. If the legislature won't (or can't, knowing the current budget) can we see if TSRA or the NRA can get some grant money for this - either from their funds, other foundations, or even putting some pressure on the federal DOJ for the grant money. I think the study should focus more on regular crime on campus and how licensed carry promotes self-defense in other places. We can avoid the topic of school massacres altogether and do a reasonable study.

There is a clear problem in the House and I'll report on that later. For now, let's all just take a step back, cool off, and plan calmly for the 2012 election and the 2013 legislative session. To do otherwise is an exercise in futility and we may damage relationships so vital to success in future sessions.

To the extent some of my posts may have already offended some, I truly apologize. Even grizzled old trial lawyers can get testy now and then. As always, thanks for your support of Texas gun owners.

Chas.


There is an old saying we might need to consider: Don't get made - get even. We can all calm down and look at the specifics of this situation. I agree that planning for the 2012 elections might be the critical part to planning for the 2013 session.

And don't worry about getting testy. You have been more calm on this board than many of us. You are certainly entitled to vent a little too.

:clapping: :hurry: :thumbs2:
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Keith B » Sat May 21, 2011 7:39 am

baldeagle wrote:
Keith B wrote:I can see you have your mind made up and trying to talk to you about this would be :deadhorse: So, just remember when you vote against a legislator who has a predominantly pro-gun stance and has a track record to prove it, you are more than likely killing your chances of getting ANY 2A legislation passed for future sessions.

And that would be different from this session how?


No different, 2-way street on this and we will just have to agree to disagree. ;-)

But as Flint says, we are all dissapointed on this. :banghead:
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Liberty » Sat May 21, 2011 8:02 am

JJVP wrote:And those who say that Wenworth did all he could I will disagree. He had a chance to get SB354 passed with the 20 votes he had when 2 democrats asked him to hold the vote because they wanted to get a couple of photo opportunities with Michelle Obama. He should have told them, yeah go ahead, and then proceed with the vote. That's waht democrats would have done in his place. Then all the rest of shenanigans with SB5 and SG1581 would have been unnecessary.


If he had done that he would have lost all respect not only from those on the other side of the aisle, but also his from his supporters and constituents. Tom Delay learned this the hard way. The only thing more importand than a polititians positions and effectiveness is his character and honesty.. At least for real conservatives.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Paragrouper » Sat May 21, 2011 9:19 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:It's clear there is a lot of educating that needs to be done before campus-carry passes. We have to remember that the general public simply doesn't care about this issue and the idea of "guns in school" still strikes fear in the hearts of many of those who are not as well educated on the facts of concealed carry and self-defense as are those in the active shooting community. It's not their fault, nor ours, it just the way it is. We have to change that through education.

Chas.


This to me is the key issue. Over the last few weeks I have spoken to a number of people on campus carry, mostly at work (i'm stuck there anyway). From my conversations with ~30 people I work with and have worked with a number of years, I can offer the following observations:

1. Only a couple were even aware campus carry was before the legislature (they attend night school and, unfortunatley, fell into category '3' below).
2. Once informed, about half were ambivalent on the topic, although many would agree the proposed law had merit.
3. The other half did not understand why students needed guns and were against the idea (I'm working on them).
4. Not one person I spoke with would agree to call or write in support (see two and three above).

It is clear to me that we need to spend some more time educating the public on this issue, if we plan to succeed. We may also want to take a look at our 'ground game' to ensure we are effectively communicating with members of the House and Senate. I do not believe that general politician bashing serves any practical purpose--although some focussed efforts against certain individuals might be in order. But we have plenty of time to sort that out after the dust settles from this session.

In the meantime, we still have a number of items that have not reached Perry's desk. Perhaps we should focus on them instead?
DCC
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby raptor » Sat May 21, 2011 12:44 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:Charles,

Strauss tried to kill the two flagship RKBA bills this year, and he got what he wanted with one of them, and unless something has happened in the last 24 hours since I hit the road, the other one is still not passed. He did the same thing the last time, and he got what he wanted. Is there ANY redeeming quality to this man, and is there ANY reason that there should not be a concerted effort to throw his worthless butt out of office.

No reason unless you like a Speaker of the House who wants us disarmed so we're easy prey for criminals.

We also need to toss out the ones who supported him for Speaker. He killed campus safety last session and they knew that when they made him Speaker again.

I think some of them did it so they could sign on as empty suit "co-authors" of HB750, knowing Uncle Joe would block any attempts to make colleges safer.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sat May 21, 2011 1:39 pm

baldeagle wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
baldeagle wrote:
Owens wrote:So who are these 2 turncoat senators? THEY need to be given the opportunity to obtain other employment.

Some things definitely need to be changed. This outcome is totally ridiculous. No reason for it to have happened this way.

I wonder though if we would say the same thing if we used some of the same tactics to stop something we don't like.

Senators Lucio and Gallegos. You also have some flaming hypocrites. Senator Zaffirini, who is vehemently opposed to campus carry, along with Lucio and Gallegos, voted for politicians to carry whereever they want. You can't rise to a higher level of hypocrisy than that.


What is Sen. Gallegos' track record for gun owners? Do you know? Do you care?

Chas.

What's his track record? He voted AGAINST campus carry and FOR legislators carrying. What else do I need to know?

I owe you an apology; I had just responded to an email about Sen. Hinajosa and was thinking about him; not Sen. Gallegos. "Chuy" has done a lot for us, not Gallegos.

Sorry,
Chas.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby tbrown » Sat May 21, 2011 1:51 pm

srothstein wrote:There is an old saying we might need to consider: Don't get mad - get even. We can all calm down and look at the specifics of this situation. I agree that planning for the 2012 elections might be the critical part to planning for the 2013 session.

I agree. The 2012 elections are the right time to get even. Vote them out. Supporting pro-gun challengers in the primaries will also lay the groundwork for a successful 2013 session.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby J.R.@A&M » Sat May 21, 2011 2:47 pm

My main thought about 2013 campus carry is to frame it more in terms of deterrence/prevention of general violent crime, both on an off campus, versus focusing on the mass shooting/Va Tech scenario. The other side appeared to be successful in framing the issue as "making the campus safer" and pointing out that mass shootings are rare. The point is to make individuals safer (or at least give them the choice). The "campus" is just a geographical abstraction.

To that end, I think it would be useful to compile violent crime statistics in college towns (in and AROUND campuses).

P.S. How many of you went to the range yesterday or today for therapy? Yesterday I shot a brick of .22LR through my SP101 and felt a lot better. And it wasn't bad shooting, I might add.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Ivan244 » Sat May 21, 2011 3:48 pm

J.R.@A&M wrote:My main thought about 2013 campus carry is to frame it more in terms of deterrence/prevention of general violent crime, both on an off campus, versus focusing on the mass shooting/Va Tech scenario. The other side appeared to be successful in framing the issue as "making the campus safer" and pointing out that mass shootings are rare. The point is to make individuals safer (or at least give them the choice). The "campus" is just a geographical abstraction.

To that end, I think it would be useful to compile violent crime statistics in college towns (in and AROUND campuses).

P.S. How many of you went to the range yesterday or today for therapy? Yesterday I shot a brick of .22LR through my SP101 and felt a lot better. And it wasn't bad shooting, I might add.


Going tomorrow :)

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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby baldeagle » Sat May 21, 2011 4:53 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
baldeagle wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
baldeagle wrote:
Owens wrote:So who are these 2 turncoat senators? THEY need to be given the opportunity to obtain other employment.

Some things definitely need to be changed. This outcome is totally ridiculous. No reason for it to have happened this way.

I wonder though if we would say the same thing if we used some of the same tactics to stop something we don't like.

Senators Lucio and Gallegos. You also have some flaming hypocrites. Senator Zaffirini, who is vehemently opposed to campus carry, along with Lucio and Gallegos, voted for politicians to carry whereever they want. You can't rise to a higher level of hypocrisy than that.


What is Sen. Gallegos' track record for gun owners? Do you know? Do you care?

Chas.

What's his track record? He voted AGAINST campus carry and FOR legislators carrying. What else do I need to know?

I owe you an apology; I had just responded to an email about Sen. Hinajosa and was thinking about him; not Sen. Gallegos. "Chuy" has done a lot for us, not Gallegos.

Sorry,
Chas.

No, Charles, you don't owe me an apology. Our legislators do. I had a good conversation with one of Senator Hinajosa's staffers. I fully understand his position and the internal conflict he went through. Unlike Gallegos and Lucio, he didn't lie and then change his position.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby pnctar » Sat May 21, 2011 5:45 pm

J.R.@A&M wrote:My main thought about 2013 campus carry is to frame it more in terms of deterrence/prevention of general violent crime, both on an off campus, versus focusing on the mass shooting/Va Tech scenario. The other side appeared to be successful in framing the issue as "making the campus safer" and pointing out that mass shootings are rare. The point is to make individuals safer (or at least give them the choice). The "campus" is just a geographical abstraction.

:iagree: Totally ... just the approach.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby RHenriksen » Sat May 21, 2011 5:55 pm

pnctar wrote:
J.R.@A&M wrote:My main thought about 2013 campus carry is to frame it more in terms of deterrence/prevention of general violent crime, both on an off campus, versus focusing on the mass shooting/Va Tech scenario. The other side appeared to be successful in framing the issue as "making the campus safer" and pointing out that mass shootings are rare. The point is to make individuals safer (or at least give them the choice). The "campus" is just a geographical abstraction.

:iagree: Totally ... just the approach.


Yup. Focusing on the extreme worst case scenario just plays into their tactic to paint us as vigilantes. Most people, especially antis, want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend It'll Never Happen To Me. So our Be Prepared, Boy Scout motto approach to life is something they can't relate to... and we wind up looking (in their minds) like we're looking for a fight.

Sticking to the more routine, high frequency, and widespread crimes on campus is more likely to appear relevant. Work on the higher odds of them being affected by a mugging or rape or carjacking instead of Virginia Tech. Then the other side of the coin... who are these CHL people? Let's put some faces and profiles out there, personalize this (in a good way).
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby apostate » Sat May 21, 2011 9:30 pm

J.R.@A&M wrote:My main thought about 2013 campus carry is to frame it more in terms of deterrence/prevention of general violent crime, both on an off campus, versus focusing on the mass shooting/Va Tech scenario. The other side appeared to be successful in framing the issue as "making the campus safer" and pointing out that mass shootings are rare. The point is to make individuals safer (or at least give them the choice). The "campus" is just a geographical abstraction.

When you listen to the testimony at the committee hearings, that's what we did.

By and large, the testimony for HB 750 and SB 354 talked about street crime. We explained that criminals cross property lines, so we need the ability to protect ourselves on both sides of the line. We talked about walking to our cars late at night, after class or study sessions. We talked about people who live nearby and walk or bicycle to campus, and are disarmed during their entire commute. We talked about people who rely on public transportation and are likewise at risk during their entire commute, including their time waiting alone at a bus stop. All because of an unnecessary law with no proven benefit.

The testimony against HB 750 and SB 354 was the broken record of mass shootings and their rarity. It was John Woods and his one-trick-pony brigade that focused on Virginia Tech. They would occasionally mention Charles Whitman, and one or two may have said Walt Whitman, but the bulk of their arguments against HB 750 and SB 354 were (1) VT and (2) their fear of civil rights.

In short, our testimony was about being safe whereas their testimony was about feeling safe.
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Re: HB 3639 - SB 1581

Postby Jasonw560 » Sat May 21, 2011 11:05 pm

Again, I bring up the question, "How can you FORCE people to accept a God-given right?" That's what I saw time and time again. "They're forcing us to allow guns on campus." "They will MAKE us less safe by ALLOWING guns on campus."

It is a right to defend ourselves. Whether you believe God gave it to us, it's been in our DNA since we crawled out of the slime, or our alien ancestors implanted it into the monkeys that made us human, the instinct of self-preservation is in us.

We are protecting our rights, and giving people a choice as to protect themselves or not. If they want to be victims, more power to them. I will buy them one of these:
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