New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby Morgan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:35 am

How does it work at city festivals? I notice Lewisville Western days is posted. It's an outdoor event run by the city in city streets. Doesn't seem like that should be legal to post.


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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby Rex B » Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:12 am

It's not legal.
Find Charles thread about how to report them to the state.

I wonder how one can deal with such short-term events. By the time you give notice the festival is over. What's to keep them from doing it every year knowing the statute is not written to address a 3-day event?
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby jimlongley » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:28 am

Rex B wrote:It's not legal.
Find Charles thread about how to report them to the state.

I wonder how one can deal with such short-term events. By the time you give notice the festival is over. What's to keep them from doing it every year knowing the statute is not written to address a 3-day event?


It seems to me that it would be simple to show that the signs were in place, which would still constitute a violation. What would prevent them from doing it over and over is what prevents the State Fair from doing it over and over, active pursuit of the issue even after the event is over leading to the AG taking action.
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby Rex B » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:51 am

As I recall, you have to send them a certified letter, then wait for a response. Then file a complaint to the AG who gives them 3 days (?) to remove the signs. That's when the clock starts.

By the time they get your certified letter, the event is over, the signs are gone. The city says. "Objection noted, signs were immediately removed. Sorry"
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby ELB » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:17 am

jimlongley wrote:
Rex B wrote:It's not legal.
Find Charles thread about how to report them to the state.

I wonder how one can deal with such short-term events. By the time you give notice the festival is over. What's to keep them from doing it every year knowing the statute is not written to address a 3-day event?


It seems to me that it would be simple to show that the signs were in place, which would still constitute a violation. What would prevent them from doing it over and over is what prevents the State Fair from doing it over and over, active pursuit of the issue even after the event is over leading to the AG taking action.


Yes, Mr. Cotton posted earlier (somewhere) that he wanted these uploaded so he could track them, and show the results to the Legislature in 2017. If it appears cities are trying to use the response times given to them to skirt the intent of the law, well, Legislators react do not like it when noses are being thumbed at them, they will likely fix that little problem...
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby ScottDLS » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:29 am

Another thing we can do is start open carrying at these events (after 1/1/16). We'll see if they post 30.07 signs also, but in any case they'll be unenforceable... except you might have to "take the ride". :shock: Hmmmm....I don't know if I want to be "the test case". :???:
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby jrene » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:49 am

From the Lewisville Western Days website:

Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.

Just like Addison Oktoberfest. Totally unenforceable.


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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby chasfm11 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:00 pm

jrene wrote:From the Lewisville Western Days website:

Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.

Just like Addison Oktoberfest. Totally unenforceable.


Here is the new language from the website
Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to TABC regulation, as a permitted venue at which more than 51 percent of food and beverage sales is derived from alcoholic beverages, a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby Taypo » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:24 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
jrene wrote:From the Lewisville Western Days website:

Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.

Just like Addison Oktoberfest. Totally unenforceable.


Here is the new language from the website
Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to TABC regulation, as a permitted venue at which more than 51 percent of food and beverage sales is derived from alcoholic beverages, a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.


Ah, they're using 51% now. That's a neat little trick.

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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby FL450 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:01 am

Taypo wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:
jrene wrote:From the Lewisville Western Days website:

Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.

Just like Addison Oktoberfest. Totally unenforceable.


Here is the new language from the website
Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to TABC regulation, as a permitted venue at which more than 51 percent of food and beverage sales is derived from alcoholic beverages, a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.


Ah, they're using 51% now. That's a neat little trick.


The TABC public search is down for maint. for the night but it can be searched to verify the 51% sign is valid.
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby Morgan » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:38 am

I asked the event organizers about 3006 posting and they told me it was because it was a 51% location. I said then why does the website say this 30.06 and not 51%? Quite different. So they change the website. I'm still not certain about the validity of the 51% posting. I wasn't able to find it on TABC. The city council told me it was "legally investigated" how they should proceed. I went to McKinney Oktoberfest with no posting of any kind and had a terrific time.

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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby Excaliber » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:22 am

Rex B wrote:As I recall, you have to send them a certified letter, then wait for a response. Then file a complaint to the AG who gives them 3 days (?) to remove the signs. That's when the clock starts.

By the time they get your certified letter, the event is over, the signs are gone. The city says. "Objection noted, signs were immediately removed. Sorry"


Seems to me that might work.... once.

At that point they are clearly on notice and a repeat violation next year would be clearly intentional and enforceable because it occurred more than 3 days after the notice letter.
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby chasfm11 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:49 am

I pulled a current TABC "Roster" report, searched it for all of the gun sign = Red and was unable to identify anything that looks like it would cover Western Days. Each of the red locations seems to be a bar whose name I recognize (by driving by it. :biggrinjester: )

There are a number of individual names in the Roster report with no gun sign designation. Is it possible that the license was registered elsewhere by a private company and that it covers Lewisville? It would seem that the only way to trace it would be find out from the City who the alcohol vendor(s) were and to look them up by name to see what license they hold. I cannot imagine that the license is issued soley for the duration of the Western Days event.
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby C-dub » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:25 am

I asked the city of Lewisville why they had violated SB273 by posting the 30.06 signs and the response I received was that they posted them because they were larger than the 51% signs that were enforceable. The person that responded to me claimed, but didn't identify, that the fenced festival is defined in a TABC license held by an alcohol vendor at the event according to GC411.204(a).

So, my question is, since I can't find what the definition of "premises" is for this circumstance, can the premises include public streets like this if they have an area fenced off and control the access such that it isn't exactly public for a period of time? Or is it still public and they are just blowing smoke until the festival has passed?
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Re: New Article: Stop Posting Unenforceable 30.06 Signs

Postby Waco1959 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:23 pm

C-dub wrote:So, my question is, since I can't find what the definition of "premises" is for this circumstance, can the premises include public streets like this if they have an area fenced off and control the access such that it isn't exactly public for a period of time? Or is it still public and they are just blowing smoke until the festival has passed?


Had a similar question come up about the downtown "farmers market" event in Waco that includes some winery booths. TABC said the only areas that are covered by the signs were roped off seating areas (if any) or behind the counters in the booth. If there was roped off seating the 51% sign needed to be at the entrance to the seating area. No common areas were covered and each booth had their own license. Based on my email exchange if the area is fenced/roped off and covered by one license, it may be legal. If the individual vendors have licenses, probably not.


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