HB2535 and SB1324

[ghentry]

I have read these bills but I am not clear on what effect the change to TPC §46.035 would have on us. Can someone here elaborate?

HB 2535 (Schaefer, R): Relating to the exemption from certain security licensure of certain persons who provide security services on a volunteer basis at a private primary or secondary school or church or religious organization.
Impact: Allows CHL’s to serve as volunteer security for schools and churches.
Status: Filed 3/6/13.
Position on Bill: Support if Section 2 of the Bill is deleted.

SB 1324 (Seliger, R): Relating to the authority to organize volunteer safety groups at churches, synagogues, and other places of religious worship.
Impact: Creates an exception to the requirement to have a security officer’s certification when serving with a school or church security group.
[/b]Status: Referred to Criminal Justice 3/13/13.{/b]
Position on Bill: Oppose.
NOTE: Support if amended to remove amendment to TPC §46.035(b)(6_.

[TrueFlog]

Thread already running at http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=64221" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ghentry]

I was hoping to have a separate thread regarding this portion of the bills, rather than three pages of whether it is needed, the definition of security, etc.

[Dad24GreatKids]

I have read these bills but I am not clear on what effect the change to TPC §46.035 would have on us. Can someone here elaborate?

HB 2535 (Schaefer, R): Relating to the exemption from certain security licensure of certain persons who provide security services on a volunteer basis at a private primary or secondary school or church or religious organization.
Impact: Allows CHL’s to serve as volunteer security for schools and churches.
Status: Filed 3/6/13.
Position on Bill: Support if Section 2 of the Bill is deleted.

SB 1324 (Seliger, R): Relating to the authority to organize volunteer safety groups at churches, synagogues, and other places of religious worship.
Impact: Creates an exception to the requirement to have a security officer’s certification when serving with a school or church security group.
[/b]Status: Referred to Criminal Justice 3/13/13.{/b]
Position on Bill: Oppose.
NOTE: Support if amended to remove amendment to TPC §46.035(b)(6_.

As I understand it, a CHL would be prevented from carrying in a church if either of these are passed as is, unless they are given permission to do so. We like for CHLs to be able to serve in these volunteer roles without the change to 46.035(b).

[JKTex]

I have read these bills but I am not clear on what effect the change to TPC §46.035 would have on us. Can someone here elaborate?

HB 2535 (Schaefer, R): Relating to the exemption from certain security licensure of certain persons who provide security services on a volunteer basis at a private primary or secondary school or church or religious organization.
Impact: Allows CHL’s to serve as volunteer security for schools and churches.
Status: Filed 3/6/13.
Position on Bill: Support if Section 2 of the Bill is deleted.

SB 1324 (Seliger, R): Relating to the authority to organize volunteer safety groups at churches, synagogues, and other places of religious worship.
Impact: Creates an exception to the requirement to have a security officer’s certification when serving with a school or church security group.
[/b]Status: Referred to Criminal Justice 3/13/13.{/b]
Position on Bill: Oppose.
NOTE: Support if amended to remove amendment to TPC §46.035(b)(6_.

As I understand it, a CHL would be prevented from carrying in a church if either of these are passed as is, unless they are given permission to do so. We like for CHLs to be able to serve in these volunteer roles without the change to 46.035(b).

Exactly, sort of. It only pertains to those part of organized safety group but the change to 46.035 oversteps and creates the situation you describe, which would make any CHL holder need permission on one case, and prohibited without 30.06 in the other. So essentially the same thing, it screws a CHL holder that is not part of a safety group or has expressed permission.

[TrueFlog]

I disagree. I see nothing in either bill that would restrict or remove our current right to carry in a church. The text of HB2535 essentially states that a security guard may carry in a church if authorized by the church. That's it. The bill makes no changes that apply would apply to a CHL who is not a security guard. The same is true of SB1324. Remember that 46.035(b)(6) does not apply unless the church is posted with 30.06.

[JKTex]

I disagree. I see nothing in either bill that would restrict or remove our current right to carry in a church. The text of HB2535 essentially states that a security guard may carry in a church if authorized by the church. That's it. The bill makes no changes that apply would apply to a CHL who is not a security guard. The same is true of SB1324. Remember that 46.035(b)(6) does not apply unless the church is posted with 30.06.

Reread the changes each currently makes to 46.035. Without the changes, they're cool, with, they're not.

Also see Charles comments on them in this update page on TFC.

[baldeagle]

I disagree. I see nothing in either bill that would restrict or remove our current right to carry in a church. The text of HB2535 essentially states that a security guard may carry in a church if authorized by the church. That's it. The bill makes no changes that apply would apply to a CHL who is not a security guard. The same is true of SB1324. Remember that 46.035(b)(6) does not apply unless the church is posted with 30.06.

Reread the bills. HB2535:

SECTION 2. Section 46.035(b), Penal Code, is amended to
read as follows:
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship, unless pursuant to written
authorization of the established place of religious worship.

So now you can't carry at church without written authorization of the church.

SB1324:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) except as provided by Section 1702.333,
Occupations Code, on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.[/quote]

So now ONLY members of the volunteer safety group may carry in church.

[Gat0rs]

Who would be the person that would give permission? If you are a member, can you give yourself permission?

[JKTex]

Who would be the person that would give permission? If you are a member, can you give yourself permission?

Same as any non-public property, the person in charge of the property, in this case a church leader. But it should be irrelevant because they're bad bills with those changes to 46.035. We do not want to open the door to exempting different types of property from the code.

[Gat0rs]

Who is a church leader? What if the church is run by its members? It will be interesting to see if this could ever be enforced in real life.

[TrueFlog]

Re-read my post. The changes to paragraph (6) don't matter because paragraph (6) doesn't apply unless the church is posted with a 30.06 sign.

Here's the existing Texas Penal Code

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Note that section (i) effectively negates (b)(6). Both potential bills update (b)(6), but neither remove section (i). As a result, (b)(6) still won't apply unless the church is posted with a 30.06 sign.

[TrueFlog]

Also, see this post in http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 21#p788049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HB2535 and SB1324 won't change current law for CHL's carrying in church, so people will still continue to do that. They will make it possible for volunteers to do additional things like watch the children's/infants' wing and other sensitive areas without fear of violating Chp. 1702.

Chas.

[JKTex]

Also, see this post in http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 21#p788049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HB2535 and SB1324 won't change current law for CHL's carrying in church, so people will still continue to do that. They will make it possible for volunteers to do additional things like watch the children's/infants' wing and other sensitive areas without fear of violating Chp. 1702.

Chas.

This is really kind of moot, but here is what he has in the status for the bills:

SB1324 "Support if amended to remove amendment to TPC §46.035(b)(6_"
HB2535 " Support if Section 2 of the Bill is deleted."

There is a reason we don't want the following, which modifies 46.035, removing the effectiveness of 30.06 as I read it:

" unless pursuant to written
authorization of the established place of religious worship."

"except as provided by Section 1702.333,
Occupations Code"

[baldeagle]

Re-read my post. The changes to paragraph (6) don't matter because paragraph (6) doesn't apply unless the church is posted with a 30.06 sign.

Here's the existing Texas Penal Code

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Note that section (i) effectively negates (b)(6). Both potential bills update (b)(6), but neither remove section (i). As a result, (b)(6) still won't apply unless the church is posted with a 30.06 sign.

Effective notice - the following people are designated as volunteer safety members and are authorized to carry weapons on the church premises. Under the law the church can successfully argue that you were given notice that you could not carry by not being selected as a volunteer.

30.06 is not JUST a sign.

√(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.