Training and Handgun Thoughts/Advice

[Afff_667]

Is there a generally agreed upon philosophy regarding handgun selection before seeking advanced training? The popular training centers' web sites have equipment lists that are somewhat generic, but it seems like customized 1911s are the most popular platforms for those taking things seriously enough to seek those levels of training. Although I have had my CHL for a few years now, it seems like my handgun selection lacks cohesiveness consistent with selecting and training with a specific platform, and I want to remedy that before moving forward.

I subscribe to the "one is none, two is one" school of thought and would like to have two identical handguns for concealed carry and advanced training so that there's no confusion with how the one that's currently in my holster works. It would be a significant challenge to acquire a Wilson, Ed Brown, Les Baer or comparable 1911 but completely out of the question to get two of them and have any hope of going to Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or even many of the more local training centers. Is having two handguns set up exactly the same a reasonable approach?

I recognize that you get what you pay for, but it's hard to believe that there's not a choice out there that doesn't involve buying a pair of $2,000 to $3,000 guns. Do Glocks make the grade for advanced training? Sigs? HKs? XSs? If so, are there any immediate reliability or other issues to address? I don't want to be a liability to any class I attend by having a weapon that can't stand up, and I certainly don't want to have something I can't count on when I really need it.

The answers may be obvious for some, but I am trying to make the best decision and appreciate any input.

[tarkus]

Is there a generally agreed upon philosophy regarding handgun selection before seeking advanced training? The popular training centers' web sites have equipment lists that are somewhat generic,

Determine your requirements and preferences. Pick a gun that fits your needs and wants. Train with your carry gun.

Is having two handguns set up exactly the same a reasonable approach?

I think so. What will carry when your primary is at the gunsmith or in an evidence locker?

[ELB]

Is there a generally agreed upon philosophy regarding handgun selection before seeking advanced training?

Dunno if there is a "agreed upon" philosophy... but, for me, whether "advanced" or not, key self-defense attributes for a primary handgun are 1) RELIABILITY, followed in no particular order by simplicity, high capacity, reasonable caliber (.38/9mm or above), concealability, and shootability (i.e. can I operate the dang thing properly? is it too big or small for my hand? can I reach the controls?). Easy maintainability is a big plus for me also -- corrosion resistant coatings and materials are very good features.

Call or email the trainers you are interested in and ask them. If they are not interested in explaining their choices...that might tell you something.

The popular training centers' web sites have equipment lists that are somewhat generic, but it seems like customized 1911s are the most popular platforms for those taking things seriously enough to seek those levels of training.

Dunno about this. 1911s are very popular, are well understood, have a long history, and are marketed aggressively, not least because there are so many providers nowadays. I have heard that at least one major school really pushes 1911s, even has a "school gun" (i.e with logo and all that). On the other hand, I know of another serious school that has settled on Glocks, particularly the 9mm ones, as the best all around handguns for SD. But they will train you with whatever gun you bring, in whatever caliber. Another serious trainer that I have gotten instruction from carries a variety of pistols himself, probably to maintain currency with what his students use, but does not hesitate to recommend Glocks and Sigs in particular. As for me, whatever it is worth, I have concluded 1911s are not currently the best design for a self-defense gun. There are newer ones in .45 ACP and other calibers that for the cost, weight, and size, have better attributes. I don't think a reliable 1911 are "bad," I just think there are better choices available.

Although I have had my CHL for a few years now, it seems like my handgun selection lacks cohesiveness consistent with selecting and training with a specific platform, and I want to remedy that before moving forward.

Not sure what you are saying here, but if you mean "pick one (type of) pistol and practice practice practice," I think it is good idea. I would, however, recommend that you familiarize yourself with all the major pistol operating systems, since you never know when you might end up with someone else's gun. More than one defender has had to turn his assailant's weapon on him.

I subscribe to the "one is none, two is one" school of thought and would like to have two identical handguns for concealed carry and advanced training so that there's no confusion with how the one that's currently in my holster works. ... Is having two handguns set up exactly the same a reasonable approach?

I think it is a great idea. Specifically to attending an advanced course -- you want two guns, because if the one you are training with breaks, you don't want to lose training time trying to fix it, or borrowing somebody else's (different type of) gun. In real life, as noted above, guns break, need to be repaired, disappear for other reasons, hurricanes come and you can't get to repair, etc etc.

I recognize that you get what you pay for, but it's hard to believe that there's not a choice out there that doesn't involve buying a pair of $2,000 to $3,000 guns. Do Glocks make the grade for advanced training? Sigs? HKs? XSs? If so, are there any immediate reliability or other issues to address? I don't want to be a liability to any class I attend by having a weapon that can't stand up, and I certainly don't want to have something I can't count on when I really need it.

Not sure what "XS" is (did you mean XD?), but the others you list are all reputable manufacturers. No piece of equipment is perfect, and even good manufacturers occasionally make a dud, but you can buy some pretty decent pairs of Glocks, Sigs, FN/Brownings, S&Ws, Springfield XDs, etc, and good carry gear, for less than $2000. Don't be afraid of the used gun market either, especially with respect to Glocks. They are hard to wear out. Police trade ins (like CDNN advertises) are often a good buy -- the pistols are sometimes worn looking, but not shot a lot. Buy a used pair of the same model, have a good gunsmith look them over and change out the springs, buy lots of original manufacturer magazines.

The answers may be obvious for some, but I am trying to make the best decision and appreciate any input.

It's not always obvious when starting out. Keep reading and asking questions. Here's two places you can sort thru -- it will take you some effort, but worth your time:

John Farnam's Defense Training International website has a section called "Quotes, Quips, and Lessons Learned." You can find it here: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; This is a collection of emails that John Farnam sends out to all his students updating them on things he's learned along the way, and experiences of other students. Covers more than handguns, but you can go through it and see if it helps.

Gabe Suarez's Warrior-Talk website here: http://warriortalk.com/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some forums devoted to CCW pistol, general tactics and mindset (that influence pistol selection), and forums devoted to Glock, 1911s, XDs, etc where you can see each type cussed and discussed. The fastest way to get info out of these is to read the "sticky" (permanently located at the top) posts in each forum. Warning: there is no ten-year-old rule on that forum.

Should you listen to these guys? I think so or I wouldn't recommend you go see. They train lots of people, have been doing it for years, and see lots of different guns in their courses. But they are not deities, they are guys who have opinions, and you should make up your own mind as to whether what they say makes sense.

Have fun, and don't get bogged down searching for the perfect pistol. If you don't know what else to do, buy a couple Glock 19s and half a dozen magazines and (most importantly) go do the training. You could do a lot worse pistol-wise, and the training will help you sort out whether you want to say with Glocks or go to something else.

elb

p.s. FYI, I have 9mm Hi Powers and have used them in several courses with good results.

[fm2]

I dunno if it's generally agreed upon, but some schools have their preferences and some don't. My question to those that have a strong opinion is always "why" a certain platform( 1911,sig,glock,etc) ? That opinion may or may not be pushed by the instuctor. I'm not that sensitive, I took a Glock to Gunsite because I'm more in the "shoot what you carry, how you carry" camp.

But, for most defensive handgun classes you should bring something that is about Glock 19-34 sized and use a strong side holster(IWB or OWB). Get a good belt,holster,mag pouches also. Bringing a back-up duplicate model pistol is a great idea. That way you can work on the mechanics and not be rushed or bogged down because of ammo capacity or less optimal gear. Some students may get upset if they are always waiting to start the next drill. If you carry something smaller then: you can adapt the drawstroke, tactics, etc... ; take a specialized class( like a snubby specific class); or bring your gun/gear and get them to show you their drawstroke for that combination during a break.


"customized 1911s are the most popular platforms for those taking things seriously enough to seek those levels of training."
I know that to be false for some. For example Tactical Response instructors are major Glock 19 fans. Like ELB pointed out, reliability, durability, and works for you are good qualifiers. If you e-mail the instructor, they can give you feedback on model specific stats for their classes.

There are many kinds of classes, they range from strictly shooting-IPSC-IDPA-fighting handgun-integrated skills. Think about what you want to learn and then try to match that with the training you seek. Then seek out training for skills you need to learn and go learn that.


Here's a few links to add to the thread.
http://www.tacticalresponse.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yerasimos]

Good points made by earlier posters in this thread. I will second the advice on picking one type and practicing with it a lot. Furthermore, I like the idea of having multiple handguns of the same manual of arms, and practice it myself. However, I do not believe one can guarantee that one type of handgun will be someone's eternal favorite, until it is pried from cold and dead hands, etc.

Although I have had my CHL for a few years now, it seems like my handgun selection lacks cohesiveness consistent with selecting and training with a specific platform, and I want to remedy that before moving forward.

Your sentence as written seems to imply you have a collection of handguns that have different manual of arms. Perhaps after revisiting this collection, trying a few rentals at a gun range, reading from a wide range of sources and careful consideration, you can make an informed decision regarding what you want and like in a handgun. Then perhaps you can sell your other handguns that do not fit within your standards, to help fund attendance at a training course or the purchase of ammunition or a duplicate handgun. But I know of no proven, absolute method of preventing "buyer's remorse" after buying multiple handguns of the same or different types. Advertising in gun magazines, advances in technology, statements by well-known, respected and eloquent individuals and training institutions, and time and experience can prompt anyone to reconsider their past decisions in handgun purchases.

All that said, I must admit some non-neutrality, as I do not share the general fascination with the 1911. I have already stated elsewhere why I do not choose the 1911; I still hold this viewpoint, and I dislike repeating myself. However, some capable individuals I have trained with and care about enjoy these handguns, and I am not interested in trying to persuade anyone to sell their 1911s and buy something else. However, one trainer brought to my attention the 1911's superiority in at least one metric. He mentioned a study he read about where the experimenters presented the test subjects---all individuals without experience with firearms---with various types of loaded handguns. The subjects were asked to discharge the handguns at a down-range target as quickly as they could, with no regard to accuracy. As I recall his story, the test subjects were able to prepare and discharge Glocks and revolvers within a few seconds, while they needed the better part of a full minute to successfully discharge a 1911-pattern handgun.

Some hypothetical questions: How could this experiment help inform selection of a handgun for CHL purposes? What would be the likely circumstances of a non-firearm-adept criminal seizing a CHLer’s handgun? And perhaps more importantly, how should a CHLer train and prepare to counter this type of threat? Is it an issue of equipment, tactics, skills, or what?

Concerning the general path outlined in the original post, I believe that spending $4000-6000 for a pair of handguns, spending a thousand dollars or more just for travel and lodging at a far-away training venue, or spending a small premium on special training ammunition that some places require, are some of the least cost-effective strategies for those interested in personal protection.

If you have not already done so, seek a local NRA instructor and work yourself up from there.