Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton


Topic author
v7a
Banned
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:29 pm

Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#1

Post by v7a »

Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law
Texas isn't Oklahoma.

That's true for barbecue. That's true for country music. And it's true, law enforcement and legal experts say, for open carry, the new law that will let licensed gun owners in Texas publicly tote their pistols come January.

State legislators here touted the Sooner State's open carry law as the exemplar, noting there have been no major problems in its implementation in the last few years.

But this is Texas. It's bigger, its cities are more populous than most of the other 45 states that allow some type of open carry and it has witnessed an active, aggressive political movement supportive of the new law that has clashed with local police.

With those factors in mind, police and the lawyers who train them said they cannot predict how Texas' open carry law will be enforced or received. What they do know is the greatest challenges likely will be with how law enforcement agencies interpret the law.
User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 13531
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#2

Post by C-dub »

That all sounds like a pretty fair assessment. It might be a problem and it might not. The biggest impact will be decided in how LE departments react.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
User avatar

WildBill
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 17350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#3

Post by WildBill »

C-dub wrote:That all sounds like a pretty fair assessment. It might be a problem and it might not. The biggest impact will be decided in how LE departments react.
IMO it will be more about how the Open Carriers act. :tiphat:
Last edited by WildBill on Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NRA Endowment Member
User avatar

safety1
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 595
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:13 am

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#4

Post by safety1 »

They (cities and counties) should hope that they interpret it as the law is written, unless they
have very deep pockets.
We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions. ~ Ronald Reagan ~
NRA - Life Member
User avatar

Oldgringo
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 11203
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Pineywoods of east Texas

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#5

Post by Oldgringo »

I still say, by the time that opening weekend is over, observed/practiced OC will be as scarce as hen's teeth.
User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 10371
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#6

Post by jmra »

Oldgringo wrote:I still say, by the time that opening weekend is over, observed/practiced OC will be as scarce as hen's teeth.
:iagree:
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
User avatar

ELB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 8128
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#7

Post by ELB »

Oh please. 44 other states went first, but this time it will be different. Only Texas has "aggressive" open carrier supporters. Some people don't get around much...or won't let go of their personal bogeymen.
USAF 1982-2005
____________
User avatar

Jeff B.
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:21 pm
Location: Flower Mound

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#8

Post by Jeff B. »

Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
Don’t ever let someone get away with telling you that no one wants to take your guns. - Joe Huffman
User avatar

Jumping Frog
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 5488
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Klein, TX (Houston NW suburb)

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#9

Post by Jumping Frog »

I will open carry regularly in Houston.

I used to open carry regularly before moving to Texas. Never had any problems. Don't expect them here either.
-Just call me Bob . . . Texas Firearms Coalition, NRA Life member, TSRA Life member, and OFCC Patron member

This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 10371
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#10

Post by jmra »

Jeff B. wrote:Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
"Many, many" other states have unlicensed OC? Can you list them?
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
User avatar

Jeff B.
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:21 pm
Location: Flower Mound

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#11

Post by Jeff B. »

jmra wrote:
Jeff B. wrote:Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
"Many, many" other states have unlicensed OC? Can you list them?
From Wikipedia (OK, not a prefect source, but OK for a quick reply);

Today in the United States, the laws vary from state to state regarding open carry of firearms. The categories are defined as follows:

Permissive open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They do not prohibit open carry for all non-prohibited citizens and do not require a permit or license to open carry. Open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. It must be noted that while open carry may be legal in such jurisdictions per se, persons openly carrying firearms may be detained and cited by law enforcement officials for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace in certain locations and circumstances where openly carrying could cause public alarm.

Licensed open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They permit open carry of a handgun to all non-prohibited citizens once they have been issued a permit or license. Open carry of a handgun is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. In practice however, some of these states that have May-Issue licensing laws can be regarded as Non-Permissive for open carry, as issuing authorities rarely or never grant licenses to ordinary citizens.

Anomalous open carry states The legality of open carry varies within state, based on local policies. In such states, some local jurisdictions may permit open carry while others may impose varying degrees of restrictions or prohibit open carry entirely.

Non-permissive open carry states In these states, open carry of a handgun is not lawful, or is only lawful under such a limited set of circumstances that public carry is effectively prohibited. Such limited circumstances may include when hunting, or while traveling to/from hunting locations, while on property controlled by the person carrying, or for lawful self-defense. Additionally, some states with May-Issue licensing laws are Non-Permissive when issuing authorities are highly restrictive in the issuance of licenses allowing open carry.

Rural open carry states In these states, open carry is generally prohibited, except in unincorporated areas of counties where population densities are below statutorily-defined thresholds, and local authorities have enacted legislation to not prohibit open carry in such jurisdictions (California). As such, these states are also regarded as Anomalous open carry states.

Permissive States: AL, AK, AZ, CO, DE, ID, KS, KY, LA, ME, MI, MS, MT, NV, NM, NC, OH, SD, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY.

24, maybe not many, many, but alot!

Regards,

Jeff B.
Don’t ever let someone get away with telling you that no one wants to take your guns. - Joe Huffman
User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 10371
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#12

Post by jmra »

Jeff B. wrote:
jmra wrote:
Jeff B. wrote:Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
"Many, many" other states have unlicensed OC? Can you list them?
From Wikipedia (OK, not a prefect source, but OK for a quick reply);

Today in the United States, the laws vary from state to state regarding open carry of firearms. The categories are defined as follows:

Permissive open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They do not prohibit open carry for all non-prohibited citizens and do not require a permit or license to open carry. Open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. It must be noted that while open carry may be legal in such jurisdictions per se, persons openly carrying firearms may be detained and cited by law enforcement officials for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace in certain locations and circumstances where openly carrying could cause public alarm.

Licensed open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They permit open carry of a handgun to all non-prohibited citizens once they have been issued a permit or license. Open carry of a handgun is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. In practice however, some of these states that have May-Issue licensing laws can be regarded as Non-Permissive for open carry, as issuing authorities rarely or never grant licenses to ordinary citizens.

Anomalous open carry states The legality of open carry varies within state, based on local policies. In such states, some local jurisdictions may permit open carry while others may impose varying degrees of restrictions or prohibit open carry entirely.

Non-permissive open carry states In these states, open carry of a handgun is not lawful, or is only lawful under such a limited set of circumstances that public carry is effectively prohibited. Such limited circumstances may include when hunting, or while traveling to/from hunting locations, while on property controlled by the person carrying, or for lawful self-defense. Additionally, some states with May-Issue licensing laws are Non-Permissive when issuing authorities are highly restrictive in the issuance of licenses allowing open carry.

Rural open carry states In these states, open carry is generally prohibited, except in unincorporated areas of counties where population densities are below statutorily-defined thresholds, and local authorities have enacted legislation to not prohibit open carry in such jurisdictions (California). As such, these states are also regarded as Anomalous open carry states.

Permissive States: AL, AK, AZ, CO, DE, ID, KS, KY, LA, ME, MI, MS, MT, NV, NM, NC, OH, SD, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY.

24, maybe not many, many, but alot!

Regards,

Jeff B.
Looking at actual state laws I count 20, however 11 of those states allow local governments to restrict open carry or their open carry has restrictions that make OC impractical.
So that leaves about 9 states where you can walk the streets anywhere in the state OCing unlicensed.
BTW, La is listed as an OC state. I lived there almost 4 decades and never saw a single person OC. Just for kicks visit New Orleans with a gun strapped to your hip and see how many teeth you leave in the concrete.
And you can list CO unless you are in Denver - that would be illegal.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
User avatar

jimlongley
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 6134
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:31 pm
Location: Allen, TX

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#13

Post by jimlongley »

v7a wrote:Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law
Texas isn't Oklahoma.

That's true for barbecue. That's true for country music. And it's true, law enforcement and legal experts say, for open carry, the new law that will let licensed gun owners in Texas publicly tote their pistols come January.

State legislators here touted the Sooner State's open carry law as the exemplar, noting there have been no major problems in its implementation in the last few years.

But this is Texas. It's bigger, its cities are more populous than most of the other 45 states that allow some type of open carry and it has witnessed an active, aggressive political movement supportive of the new law that has clashed with local police.

With those factors in mind, police and the lawyers who train them said they cannot predict how Texas' open carry law will be enforced or received. What they do know is the greatest challenges likely will be with how law enforcement agencies interpret the law.
More "Chicken Little" fear mongering. I wonder if they think the law will be rescinded because they are running around tearing their hair and such. They have, and insisted on, until 01/01/16 to figure out what little needs to be figured out. If the enforcers and the trainers of the enforcers can't figure out how it will be enforced, or received, then I mourn for the state of our State. And the letter of the law leaves little for interpretation, although I think the "no stop" amendments should have been left in, just to ensure that there was no question.
Real gun control, carrying 24/7/365
User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 5350
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#14

Post by oljames3 »

Jumping Frog wrote:I will open carry regularly in Houston.

I used to open carry regularly before moving to Texas. Never had any problems. Don't expect them here either.
I will OC in Elgin, Austin, and anywhere else I legally can. This is my preferred mode. YMMV.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA, NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Instructor, Rangemaster Certified, GOA, TSRA, NAR L1

K.Mooneyham
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:27 pm
Location: Vernon, Texas

Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#15

Post by K.Mooneyham »

So, reading that excerpt from the article, I saw this: ...blah, blah, blah, blood will run in the streets, blah, blah, blah..." And much like what was said of concealed carry, it will all likely turn out to be liberal hand-wringing and nothing more than a tempest in a teapot.
Locked

Return to “2015 Legislative Session”