CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

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Solaris
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Solaris » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:37 am

mojo84 wrote:You seem to be assuming the cops weren't called. The clerk picked the phone up multiple times. Who did he call?

I did not see VicMackey make a phone call. Maybe he left phone it in the car? [ I do not know who clerk called. Who are YOU ASSUMING he called?] BTW, 911 does not mind if there is more than 1 caller.

Have you ever been in a similar situation where someone just kept coming at and threatening you?

Yes.

How do you know the guy didn't say he was going to his car to get a gun?

So the correct tactic is to follow him to the car?

Who are you to criticize the guy's method of carry.

I am a guy on a gun forum and was asked by the OP ( let's discuss what you think the armed citizen did right, and/or wrong.) to discuss. That is who I am and what I am doing.

Just because you do not like open carry for yourself,

WRONG.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions in order to criticize the armed citizen's "tactics".

I am assuming nothing. Everything is based on what we all see on the tape. You are making assumptions about who the clerk called, whether the guy said he was going to car to get gun,etc., all of this is assumptions on your part. Let's get back to actual facts..

I think it is a shame some seem to be awfully quick to turn on a good Samaritan for trying to help another. Eating out own every chance we get isn't beneficial.

Blame the OP for asking for discussion.


Why are people afraid to discuss tactics employed in a REAL shooting? How are we going to improve ourselves if we do not look for right/wrong in real events?


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I am not running from this thread, but after a week of rain I need to cut the grass and I have a lot to cut. Back later.

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Middle Age Russ
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Middle Age Russ » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:45 am

A firearm is a force option most of us here on the forum have chosen to carry against the extremely small risk we'll ever have to employ it in need. Sound tactics help mitigate the risks of needing to use the gun, but sound tactics cannot eliminate all risks. I would generally agree with Solaris that the defender at the gas station did not employ the best tactics possible and the risk of having to use the gun was not eliminated as a result and the gun was used. I also agree with most others that results matter, and in the end the defender resorted to the tactic of employing deadly force which effectively stopped the threat.

Decisions have consequences, and the decisions of the defender ultimately helped narrow his choices down to the point that deadly force was necessary. He'll have to live with that, but at least he came out of the confrontation with that ability. The aggressor's decisions produced consequences he was not able to live through.
Russ
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mojo84
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby mojo84 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:49 am

Solaris wrote:
mojo84 wrote:You seem to be assuming the cops weren't called. The clerk picked the phone up multiple times. Who did he call?

I did not see VicMackey make a phone call. Maybe he left phone it in the car? [ I do not know who clerk called. Who are YOU ASSUMING he called?] BTW, 911 does not mind if there is more than 1 caller.

Have you ever been in a similar situation where someone just kept coming at and threatening you?

Yes.

How do you know the guy didn't say he was going to his car to get a gun?

So the correct tactic is to follow him to the car?

Who are you to criticize the guy's method of carry.

I am a guy on a gun forum and was asked by the OP ( let's discuss what you think the armed citizen did right, and/or wrong.) to discuss. That is who I am and what I am doing.

Just because you do not like open carry for yourself,

WRONG.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions in order to criticize the armed citizen's "tactics".

I am assuming nothing. Everything is based on what we all see on the tape. You are making assumptions about who the clerk called, whether the guy said he was going to car to get gun,etc., all of this is assumptions on your part. Let's get back to actual facts..

I think it is a shame some seem to be awfully quick to turn on a good Samaritan for trying to help another. Eating out own every chance we get isn't beneficial.

Blame the OP for asking for discussion.


Why are people afraid to discuss tactics employed in a REAL shooting? How are we going to improve ourselves if we do not look for right/wrong in real events?


eta

I am not running from this thread, but after a week of rain I need to cut the grass and I have a lot to cut. Back later.


I'm not assuming anything. Just asking what you are assuming since you said the guy did nothing right. If I was assuming the answers, I would not have asked the questions. I can assure you, I am not afraid of discussing just about anything that is within my realm.

Since you say you have been in a similar situation, can you provide a video so we can critique your tactics or learn how to perfectly handle a similar situation?

You have moved way beyond just discussing the guy's tactics and the situation at hand and have begun attacking people for having a different opinion than you.
Last edited by mojo84 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Carolina Cajun
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Carolina Cajun » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:52 am

IMO it's a tragic situation on both ends, but here is what I would have done. I would have just paid for my purchase and left the store and went directly to my vehicle and locked the doors. After that I would have used my phone zoom in and take a picture of the aggressor's license plate and vehicle. I would have also called the police and let them know the situation and been a very good witness from the safety of my locked vehicle.

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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby mojo84 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:57 am

Carolina Cajun wrote:IMO it's a tragic situation on both ends, but here is what I would have done. I would have just paid for my purchase and left the store and went directly to my vehicle and locked the doors. After that I would have used my phone zoom in and take a picture of the aggressor's license plate and vehicle. I would have also called the police and let them know the situation and been a very good witness from the safety of my locked vehicle.


That is an extremely wise option. However, in the meantime, the guy could have gone back in and done harm to someone or driven away in a fit of rage and ran over some innocent person.

There are a multitude of good and wise ways this could have been handled. Yours is one of them.

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Carolina Cajun
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Carolina Cajun » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:08 am

mojo84 wrote:
Carolina Cajun wrote:IMO it's a tragic situation on both ends, but here is what I would have done. I would have just paid for my purchase and left the store and went directly to my vehicle and locked the doors. After that I would have used my phone zoom in and take a picture of the aggressor's license plate and vehicle. I would have also called the police and let them know the situation and been a very good witness from the safety of my locked vehicle.


That is an extremely wise option. However, in the meantime, the guy could have gone back in and done harm to someone or driven away in a fit of rage and ran over some innocent person.

There are a multitude of good and wise ways this could have been handled. Yours is one of them.


Mojo84: I hear you, but in all honestly what the aggressor did after the fact is not really my problem, that's up for the police to handle. Now that's just my opinion.

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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby mojo84 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:10 am

Carolina Cajun wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Carolina Cajun wrote:IMO it's a tragic situation on both ends, but here is what I would have done. I would have just paid for my purchase and left the store and went directly to my vehicle and locked the doors. After that I would have used my phone zoom in and take a picture of the aggressor's license plate and vehicle. I would have also called the police and let them know the situation and been a very good witness from the safety of my locked vehicle.


That is an extremely wise option. However, in the meantime, the guy could have gone back in and done harm to someone or driven away in a fit of rage and ran over some innocent person.

There are a multitude of good and wise ways this could have been handled. Yours is one of them.


Mojo84: I hear you, but in all honestly what the aggressor did after the fact is not really my problem, that's up for the police to handle. Now that's just my opinion.


I understand. There are quite a few with that opinion. However, there are a lot of people that are willing to help others and provide assistance to those in need. We shouldn't criticize and vilify those that are willing and able to provide assistance to others.

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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Carolina Cajun » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:12 am

mojo84 wrote:
Carolina Cajun wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Carolina Cajun wrote:IMO it's a tragic situation on both ends, but here is what I would have done. I would have just paid for my purchase and left the store and went directly to my vehicle and locked the doors. After that I would have used my phone zoom in and take a picture of the aggressor's license plate and vehicle. I would have also called the police and let them know the situation and been a very good witness from the safety of my locked vehicle.


That is an extremely wise option. However, in the meantime, the guy could have gone back in and done harm to someone or driven away in a fit of rage and ran over some innocent person.

There are a multitude of good and wise ways this could have been handled. Yours is one of them.


Mojo84: I hear you, but in all honestly what the aggressor did after the fact is not really my problem, that's up for the police to handle. Now that's just my opinion.


I understand. There are quite a few with that opinion. However, there are a lot of people that are willing to help others and provide assistance to those in need. We shouldn't criticize and vilify those that are willing and able to provide assistance to others.


Mojo84: I agree, I was not trying to criticize anyone and I apologize if I came off that way.

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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby mojo84 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:18 am

Carolina Cajun wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Carolina Cajun wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Carolina Cajun wrote:IMO it's a tragic situation on both ends, but here is what I would have done. I would have just paid for my purchase and left the store and went directly to my vehicle and locked the doors. After that I would have used my phone zoom in and take a picture of the aggressor's license plate and vehicle. I would have also called the police and let them know the situation and been a very good witness from the safety of my locked vehicle.


That is an extremely wise option. However, in the meantime, the guy could have gone back in and done harm to someone or driven away in a fit of rage and ran over some innocent person.

There are a multitude of good and wise ways this could have been handled. Yours is one of them.


Mojo84: I hear you, but in all honestly what the aggressor did after the fact is not really my problem, that's up for the police to handle. Now that's just my opinion.


I understand. There are quite a few with that opinion. However, there are a lot of people that are willing to help others and provide assistance to those in need. We shouldn't criticize and vilify those that are willing and able to provide assistance to others.


Mojo84: I agree, I was not trying to criticize anyone and I apologize if I came off that way.


Didn't take your comments as such. But some blatantly are.

I am quite confident our country wouldn't have become the great nation it is and was if it wasn't for those willing to sacrifice and take risk to help and protect others. We as a society cannot always rely on someone else to do the dirty work and can't always leave it up to the cops or firefighters or other emergency response folks.

Here is a show that does a good job of illustrating how some will help and others won't.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwdo8-3UrfZ9scHPl0m4Ysg

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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby rtschl » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:36 am

My take is that the OC guy let the perp in too close at the beginning for my comfort. If it was me (I wouldn't OC) but I would have put more distance between me and the perp yelling at the clerk and try to be a good witness - from a little bit further away. I do not fault him for trying to get the license plate and would not fault anyone for not doing so. But it appears to me is that all he was doing was being a good witness - including getting the license plate number for the police. The perp then turns on him for doing so. The guy goes back into the store - he does not appear to argue or confront the perp. So I would say for the purpose of de-escalation he is doing fine. IMHO being a good witness is NOT escalating a situation.

Tactically would I do things a little different - probably. As someone else said, maybe not be so obvious about getting the license plate or getting it as he drove off. But I think officials were correct to not file any charges as the shooting seems justified based on the actions of the perp.
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Mavs00 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:37 pm

Middle Age Russ wrote:A firearm is a force option most of us here on the forum have chosen to carry against the extremely small risk we'll ever have to employ it in need. Sound tactics help mitigate the risks of needing to use the gun, but sound tactics cannot eliminate all risks. I would generally agree with Solaris that the defender at the gas station did not employ the best tactics possible and the risk of having to use the gun was not eliminated as a result and the gun was used. I also agree with most others that results matter, and in the end the defender resorted to the tactic of employing deadly force which effectively stopped the threat.

Decisions have consequences, and the decisions of the defender ultimately helped narrow his choices down to the point that deadly force was necessary. He'll have to live with that, but at least he came out of the confrontation with that ability. The aggressor's decisions produced consequences he was not able to live through.


:iagree:

... and I said as much on page 1. :biggrinjester: This is my exact opinion.

As for the non-H2H crowd.... Keep in mind the point I made earlier. IMO It's not a primary option for and OCer, and 2, unless you are completely versed in how it works, it's not something you should attempt unless it's forced on you. However, if you know what you are doing, you could completely incapacitate someone quite easily (particularly someone drunk) and very quickly. But again.... It is a force-option, just like your weapon is and it's generally considered less-lethal. Like your weapon though, it shouldn't be an option at all unless you have some understanding to it.

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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Keith B » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:04 pm

Solaris wrote:
However all we have is the non-audio tape, so that is all we can comment on, and for whatever reason nobody really wants to talk about tactics right/wrong, but on just some how justifying a shooting none of us will ever have all the facts to.


There's your problem; you can't talk tactics validly from just a video with no audio and without other info. Any talk about what he did or didn't do is pure speculation. All we DO KNOW is that he was justified in the shooting from the investigation done by the DA and police. Trying to armchair quarterback the shooting and say what he did right or wring from just that video is no bueno.
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby steveincowtown » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:47 pm

I would have never followed the guy into the parking lot. As soon as left the store the first time I would have locked the door and called it a day until the cops came.

IMHO, following someone to their car is not only escalating the situation, it is an excellent way to get killed.
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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Carolina Cajun » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:05 pm

steveincowtown wrote:I would have never followed the guy into the parking lot. As soon as left the store the first time I would have locked the door and called it a day until the cops came.

IMHO, following someone to their car is not only escalating the situation, it is an excellent way to get killed.


:iagree:


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Re: CHL Instructor Shoots Aggressor at Gas Station

Postby Solaris » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:23 pm

mojo84 wrote:Since you say you have been in a similar situation, can you provide a video so we can critique your tactics or learn how to perfectly handle a similar situation?


Yes there is video on YouTube. You have probably seen it. You do not have to critique my tactics, my supervisors did that for me in spades. I had no problem hearing it either, I knew I could have done better, I wanted to improve, and they had no problem telling me. I learned from it, worked on improving, and it never happened again. But enough about me, let's return to discussing this incident, which seems to be back on track.


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