Pointed my pistol at another human today.

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bubba84
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Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby bubba84 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:49 pm

Dropped the wife off at the front of JCPenneys as the kids and I were gonna wait in the car. I moved about a 1/3 of the way through the parking lot away from the store and parked under a light pole. There was a couple standing at their vehicle at the very back of the parking lot. I could hear their argument with my windows rolled up. The female was standing at the rear of their SUV with the liftgate up, changing a babies diaper while the male was pacing back and forth around the car. She finished changing the diaper and placed the child in the rear seat on the drivers side. She got in the drivers seat. He got in the passenger side and slammed the door so hard I saw the glass ripple. She got out, grabbed the baby, and started walking back to the store. I told my kids that if I got out of the vehicle they were to stay put, be still, and be quiet. She pulled her phone out and was dialing while walking away. When she started dialing, he jumped out of their vehicle and ran up behind her and kicked her right leg out from under her. She stumbled, dropped the phone and almost dropped the baby. I got out of my vehicle and as I was approaching, he kicked her again. I yelled for him to get away from her and to stop kicking her. He turned his attention toward me and yelled an explative followed by "you, nerd." (Didnt know I looked nerdy). As he started toward me, he shoved his hand in his pocket. I drew and pointed my pistol at him and told him to remove his hand from his pocket and get on the ground. Spent 8.5 years in LE and the muscle memory and commands were instictual. I started reaching for a radio mic that wasnt where I wore it when I was in uniform. He showed his hands and kept approaching. I reholstered to keep the pistol secure because I knew it was about to go fisticuffs. A lady in another vehicle also saw the entire incident and went to flag down a trooper that had passed by a few seconds prior to this. As he got within arms reach, I spun him away from me and arm barred him to the ground. I was on top of him when the trooper pulled up and yelled for me to get off of him. I told the trooper I was not getting off of him until he was in handcuffs as he had assaulted his gf, was combative and resisting. The trooper pulled his taser and cuffs. Trooper told the bf that if he continued to fight before he was cuffed that he would be tased, I helped the trooper cuff him.

The local pd showed up and started their investigation. The gf and other female witness corroborated what had happened. They took pictures of her injuries, recorded her and my statement on a video camera and BF was hauled off to jail.


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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby loscar141 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:04 pm

Glad to hear you are okay, and no lives were lost. a good outcome.


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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby casp625 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:06 pm

loscar141 wrote:Glad to hear you are okay, and no lives were lost. a good outcome.

:iagree:
On a side note, pretty dumb to keep walking up on a person who is pointing a handgun at you :headscratch While the OP has LE training, would the average CHL holder be ready for hand-to-hand combat and potentially have their weapon taken from? Could have turned ugly very fast.

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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby nightmare69 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:13 pm

Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby bubba84 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:29 pm

nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?


Texas PC Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;
(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and
(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

My desire to avoid harm outweighed the harm sought to be prevented. I also reasonably believed my actions were immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm.

The BF had already assaulted his GF, no telling what hes willing to do to "Joe Blow" trying to stop him.

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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby C-dub » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:29 pm

nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby bubba84 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:34 pm

C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.


^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby nightmare69 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:40 pm

Physical stature plays a big role. Also, if the OP could convince a jury that he felt in fear of his life and safety to the point he had no other choice but to use deadly force then he would have been justified. I could see the average Joe Citizen shoot being justified.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby ELB » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:55 pm

C-dub wrote:...I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.


I'm not sure what authority an LEO would have regarding self-defense or defense of another that a citizen wouldn't have. Once the pistol is brought into play justifiably, as it was here, preventing an attempted disarm would seem to be every bit as much justification for the citizen as for an officer. Like nightmare69 pointed out, other factors like disparity of stature come into play, and I would think also disparity of age (get the feeling bubba84 was not the younger combatant), the fact that the bf had kicked the woman to the ground and again while she was on the ground, and the defender's own level of training would play into it. Bubba84 turned out to have some open-hand skills that he felt he could employ, but another person may not have those, and I don't think the law requires he let himself be beaten and/or disarmed, especially by a younger/maybe stronger and certainly more vicious assailant. It might be sticky, but if someone else without hand-to-hand training had been in bubba84's shoes, I think there would be a good case to be made if this clown had been shot instead of grappled.

Congrats to bubba84 and glad it turned it alright for you and everyone else.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby TexasTornado » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:13 am

bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.


^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.



Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:42 am

TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.

As someone who is both health and age challenged, I'm inclined to agree. And here's another issue to consider... We're dealing here with a man who has already demonstrated his willingness to use violence instead of words to solve his problems — problems which appear to be entirely of his own making. There was a time when I would have been fairly comfortable with using open handed techniques on an opponent in a situation like this. Those days are behind me.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby TexasTornado » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:49 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.

As someone who is both health and age challenged, I'm inclined to agree. And here's another issue to consider... We're dealing here with a man who has already demonstrated his willingness to use violence instead of words to solve his problems — problems which appear to be entirely of his own making. There was a time when I would have been fairly comfortable with using open handed techniques on an opponent in a situation like this. Those days are behind me.


:iagree:

In my case I took taekwondo long enough to learn that teqnique is simply no match for size and pure strength. Knowing how to handle yourself is great when it's your only option, but against a much larger and stronger opponent your only real goal is escape, not getting the opposition to the ground.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby bubba84 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:09 am

TexasTornado wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.

As someone who is both health and age challenged, I'm inclined to agree. And here's another issue to consider... We're dealing here with a man who has already demonstrated his willingness to use violence instead of words to solve his problems — problems which appear to be entirely of his own making. There was a time when I would have been fairly comfortable with using open handed techniques on an opponent in a situation like this. Those days are behind me.


:iagree:

In my case I took taekwondo long enough to learn that teqnique is simply no match for size and pure strength. Knowing how to handle yourself is great when it's your only option, but against a much larger and stronger opponent your only real goal is escape, not getting the opposition to the ground.



Ive got enough training to be comfortable in a scrap, Im also 31 years old, 6'3 and 350lbs.

My draw was based on his concealed hand, i used no punches or strikes, just an open handed arm bar and I maintained control of him through that on the ground until help arrived.

For the legal jargon, I used the least amount of force necessary to stop the threat.

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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby TexasTornado » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:29 am

bubba84 wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.

As someone who is both health and age challenged, I'm inclined to agree. And here's another issue to consider... We're dealing here with a man who has already demonstrated his willingness to use violence instead of words to solve his problems — problems which appear to be entirely of his own making. There was a time when I would have been fairly comfortable with using open handed techniques on an opponent in a situation like this. Those days are behind me.


:iagree:

In my case I took taekwondo long enough to learn that teqnique is simply no match for size and pure strength. Knowing how to handle yourself is great when it's your only option, but against a much larger and stronger opponent your only real goal is escape, not getting the opposition to the ground.



Ive got enough training to be comfortable in a scrap, Im also 31 years old, 6'3 and 350lbs.

My draw was based on his concealed hand, i used no punches or strikes, just an open handed arm bar and I maintained control of him through that on the ground until help arrived.

For the legal jargon, I used the least amount of force necessary to stop the threat.


Oh to be 6'3 and built like a linebacker... (slightly jealous) I'm 5'2" (stretching)...definitely not large enough to be imposing in any way.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby TexasTornado » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:34 am

TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.

As someone who is both health and age challenged, I'm inclined to agree. And here's another issue to consider... We're dealing here with a man who has already demonstrated his willingness to use violence instead of words to solve his problems — problems which appear to be entirely of his own making. There was a time when I would have been fairly comfortable with using open handed techniques on an opponent in a situation like this. Those days are behind me.


:iagree:

In my case I took taekwondo long enough to learn that teqnique is simply no match for size and pure strength. Knowing how to handle yourself is great when it's your only option, but against a much larger and stronger opponent your only real goal is escape, not getting the opposition to the ground.



Ive got enough training to be comfortable in a scrap, Im also 31 years old, 6'3 and 350lbs.

My draw was based on his concealed hand, i used no punches or strikes, just an open handed arm bar and I maintained control of him through that on the ground until help arrived.

For the legal jargon, I used the least amount of force necessary to stop the threat.


Oh to be 6'3 and built like a linebacker... (slightly jealous) I'm 5'2" (stretching)...definitely not large enough to be imposing in any way.


On another note....what special kind of idiot does it take to keep coming towards a guy who's 6'3" 350 lbs and has a gun..... :leaving
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