Pointed my pistol at another human today.

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nightmare69
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby nightmare69 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:43 am

bubba84 wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.

As someone who is both health and age challenged, I'm inclined to agree. And here's another issue to consider... We're dealing here with a man who has already demonstrated his willingness to use violence instead of words to solve his problems — problems which appear to be entirely of his own making. There was a time when I would have been fairly comfortable with using open handed techniques on an opponent in a situation like this. Those days are behind me.


:iagree:

In my case I took taekwondo long enough to learn that teqnique is simply no match for size and pure strength. Knowing how to handle yourself is great when it's your only option, but against a much larger and stronger opponent your only real goal is escape, not getting the opposition to the ground.



Ive got enough training to be comfortable in a scrap, Im also 31 years old, 6'3 and 350lbs.

My draw was based on his concealed hand, i used no punches or strikes, just an open handed arm bar and I maintained control of him through that on the ground until help arrived.

For the legal jargon, I used the least amount of force necessary to stop the threat.


A beast of a man like you I now feel sorry for anyone who is dumb enough to step across from you.

How big was the other guy?
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby Ed4032 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:52 am

[/quote]On another note....what special kind of idiot does it take to keep coming towards a guy who's 6'3" 350 lbs and has a gun..... :leaving[/quote]

The kind that beats up a woman holding a baby...
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bubba84
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby bubba84 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:55 am

5'9-5'10, normal height prolly around 180lbs.

Overheard the GF describing his mental health history and he is apparently on several different psych meds and has been to green oaks a time or two for evaluation.

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flowrie
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby flowrie » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:02 am

Really a good post, thanks!
Have always played out similar scenarios in my head. I am average build, had three back surgeries, two fusions, that resulted in weakness in the arms, shoulders and lower back. Doubt I can easily take down a determined belligerent bad guy.

Saw something some time ago about "Ability, Opportunity, and Intent" or "AOI". Seems to me like this bad guy would fill the bill on all three, but hope I never have to deal with such a situation.
Are there any LEO's or former LEO's that can comment on the "AOI" ? Is this taught?

Thanks to all!

Oh, if you live in the Denton area, the Denton PD is selling "Back the Blue" signs for your yard for the Denton POA.
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bubba84
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby bubba84 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:06 am

It wasnt taught in any of the classes, schools, or academies I was in. Our training was based off of a +1 force continuum.

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Lynyrd
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby Lynyrd » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:58 am

The young woman was very fortunate that you were there, and willing, and able, to do what you did. :tiphat:
Do what you say you're gonna do.

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mojo84
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby mojo84 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:10 am

Congrats on resolving this issue without shooting. Also, thanks for your willingness to get involved.

Many think once the gun is pulled the only next step is to pull the trigger. This is a great example of using better judgement. Then again, we all are not the mountain of a man you are.

Good job!!!

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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby Excaliber » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:18 am

bubba84 wrote:5'9-5'10, normal height prolly around 180lbs.

Overheard the GF describing his mental health history and he is apparently on several different psych meds and has been to green oaks a time or two for evaluation.


The mental health aspect is not surprising at all. The fact that he has known issues in this area can be inferred from his actions alone, and that made him a very dangerous individual indeed.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby imkopaka » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:24 am

Way to go OP! :hurry:
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby vjallen75 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:26 am

bubba84 wrote:Dropped the wife off at the front of JCPenneys as the kids and I were gonna wait in the car. I moved about a 1/3 of the way through the parking lot away from the store and parked under a light pole. There was a couple standing at their vehicle at the very back of the parking lot. I could hear their argument with my windows rolled up. The female was standing at the rear of their SUV with the liftgate up, changing a babies diaper while the male was pacing back and forth around the car. She finished changing the diaper and placed the child in the rear seat on the drivers side. She got in the drivers seat. He got in the passenger side and slammed the door so hard I saw the glass ripple. She got out, grabbed the baby, and started walking back to the store. I told my kids that if I got out of the vehicle they were to stay put, be still, and be quiet. She pulled her phone out and was dialing while walking away. When she started dialing, he jumped out of their vehicle and ran up behind her and kicked her right leg out from under her. She stumbled, dropped the phone and almost dropped the baby. I got out of my vehicle and as I was approaching, he kicked her again. I yelled for him to get away from her and to stop kicking her. He turned his attention toward me and yelled an explative followed by "you, nerd." (Didnt know I looked nerdy). As he started toward me, he shoved his hand in his pocket. I drew and pointed my pistol at him and told him to remove his hand from his pocket and get on the ground. Spent 8.5 years in LE and the muscle memory and commands were instictual. I started reaching for a radio mic that wasnt where I wore it when I was in uniform. He showed his hands and kept approaching. I reholstered to keep the pistol secure because I knew it was about to go fisticuffs. A lady in another vehicle also saw the entire incident and went to flag down a trooper that had passed by a few seconds prior to this. As he got within arms reach, I spun him away from me and arm barred him to the ground. I was on top of him when the trooper pulled up and yelled for me to get off of him. I told the trooper I was not getting off of him until he was in handcuffs as he had assaulted his gf, was combative and resisting. The trooper pulled his taser and cuffs. Trooper told the bf that if he continued to fight before he was cuffed that he would be tased, I helped the trooper cuff him.

The local pd showed up and started their investigation. The gf and other female witness corroborated what had happened. They took pictures of her injuries, recorded her and my statement on a video camera and BF was hauled off to jail.


Good for you Bubba84, we need more people like you in the world willing to help out others. I am glad everybody got to go home except for the BG. I hope the woman didn't have major injuries.

Ed4032 wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:On another note....what special kind of idiot does it take to keep coming towards a guy who's 6'3" 350 lbs and has a gun..... :leaving


The kind that beats up a woman holding a baby...


^ This, what a sad, sad thing. It's one thing to do that to a woman in general, but bring a babe into the picture. IMHO you are a coward and someone HAS to step in. Again, good for Bubba84, we are proud of you!
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby RPBrown » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:39 am

TexasTornado wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
bubba84 wrote:
C-dub wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:Glad to hear you made it out ok. I know exactly what you mean going for your mic. In your opinion, would you have been justified in using deadly force since the subject continued to approach you?

I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

^ this, there was a perceived threat with his hand in his pocket, once his hands were visible and they were empty the pistol was put away as there is no longer justification.

When PD showed up, the other witness, not the GF told the officers that he did shove his hand in his pocket like he was grabbing for something as he approached me and as he showed his hands, I put my pistol away.

Had he not done what he did with his hand, I wouldnt have drawn. There wouldve been no justification and I aint taking a ride in hopes of beating the rap.

Unfortunately I think there is some disparity in justification based on who you are, your size and sadly your gender. Replace male of average build and former LEO with average female non LEO and just the menacing approach may have been cause enough to draw. Likewise the continued approach within a certain distance would have been justification to shoot. I certainly wouldn't let him get close enough to put his hands on me the way he had her.

As someone who is both health and age challenged, I'm inclined to agree. And here's another issue to consider... We're dealing here with a man who has already demonstrated his willingness to use violence instead of words to solve his problems — problems which appear to be entirely of his own making. There was a time when I would have been fairly comfortable with using open handed techniques on an opponent in a situation like this. Those days are behind me.


:iagree:

In my case I took taekwondo long enough to learn that teqnique is simply no match for size and pure strength. Knowing how to handle yourself is great when it's your only option, but against a much larger and stronger opponent your only real goal is escape, not getting the opposition to the ground.



Ive got enough training to be comfortable in a scrap, Im also 31 years old, 6'3 and 350lbs.

My draw was based on his concealed hand, i used no punches or strikes, just an open handed arm bar and I maintained control of him through that on the ground until help arrived.

For the legal jargon, I used the least amount of force necessary to stop the threat.


Oh to be 6'3 and built like a linebacker... (slightly jealous) I'm 5'2" (stretching)...definitely not large enough to be imposing in any way.


On another note....what special kind of idiot does it take to keep coming towards a guy who's 6'3" 350 lbs and has a gun..... :leaving



:iagree:
A BIG IDIOT
At 6'4, 280 lbs I used to be able to pretty well handle myself but still got my license as soon as legal. Now at 60+, 2 back surgeries, and as my wife says "my chest has fallen down", its more protection to pull a weapon than to try and fight.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby labrat1001001 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:06 am

"He showed his hands and kept approaching. I reholstered to keep the pistol secure because I knew it was about to go fisticuffs." Superlative! Excellent mental control. It sure did go from your fists to his cuffs.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby bigity » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:17 am

Glad no one was seriously hurt, especially the baby.

Kudos to your willingness to intervene on behalf of a stranger.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:19 am

bubba84 wrote:Ive got enough training to be comfortable in a scrap, Im also 31 years old, 6'3 and 350lbs.

My draw was based on his concealed hand, i used no punches or strikes, just an open handed arm bar and I maintained control of him through that on the ground until help arrived.

For the legal jargon, I used the least amount of force necessary to stop the threat.

Well, I'm fixin' to be 64 in 12 days from now. I used the weigh the same as you :/ , but you've got almost 6" on me. I used to be 5'10.5" at the "height of my powers", but it's amazing how much height you can lose to a degenerating spine. I weighed 348 on 3/8/15, but have dropped 90 since then. I had (have?) a brown belt, and used to know how to handle myself fairly well. Some things you just don't forget, so I might still have one or two moves left in me; but for the most part, that's just a memory. Like RPBrown, I've had extensive back surgery and have had a long visit from Arthur Itis and all them other Itis brothers, so I don't move like I used to.

Like the others, I was impressed that you had the presence of mind to holster your weapon before grappling with the suspect. Very well done.
Last edited by The Annoyed Man on Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pointed my pistol at another human today.

Postby Smokey613 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:27 am

Like the others, I was impressed that you had the presence of mind to holster your weapon before grappling with the suspect. Very well done.


This is a perfect example of wearing a holster that allows a quick one handed re holstering / securing of your handgun. The new Kydex style retention holsters may be ugly but they are the best solution to this. I used to think I would never use a "plastic" holster but I finally wised up and now use them exclusively both on and off duty.
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