Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

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Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:17 pm

Here is a video and analysis about a sad end to an attempted self-defense shooting. The speaker appears to believe that the victim managed to charge his pistol, but that in doing so, the muzzle was not pointed at his murderer so he could engage. I disagree. The victim was still trying to rack the slide while lying on the ground after being wounded.

Chas.

http://americangg.net/lose-life-empty-chamber/
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rtschl
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby rtschl » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:25 pm

:iagree:
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby ScottDLS » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:30 pm

But...but...IDF carry and US Navy carry (circa 1988).... ;-)
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby oljames3 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:31 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Here is a video and analysis about a sad end to an attempted self-defense shooting. The speaker appears to believe that the victim managed to charge his pistol, but that in doing so, the muzzle was not pointed at his murderer so he could engage. I disagree. The victim was still trying to rack the slide while lying on the ground after being wounded.

Chas.

http://americangg.net/lose-life-empty-chamber/

:iagree:
For me, the only downside to carrying with a round in the chamber is that a live round ejects when I clear the pistol. That minor inconvenience is far outweighed by the fact that my self defense tool is ready whether or not I have the use of both hands and/or the time to load a round.
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby NNT » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:05 pm

Not arguing the point. But seems he was going to be in trouble regardless. Several Leo friends have said that closer than 21 feet it is impossible to draw before the BG is on you. Doesn't mean you should not try, but starting face to face you are at disadvantage.

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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby parabelum » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:34 pm

Charles, thank you for the post and reminder.

Unless you are highly trained operator, your survival chances are drastically reduced in such situation, where your attacker outnumbers you, has his weapon already on you, and your weapon is not in a ready state. Strike three.

Side observation, from the video, I also note the confusion when the owner chambers his weapon, tries to fire (I presume), and what appears to me is he attempts to rack the slide again.

Tells me that maybe the safety was on/gun wouldn't fire. Victim clears a hot round trying to engage and is subsequently struck again. Strike four.

Personally, when I carry, the safety is when my finger is off of the trigger.
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby Jago668 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:49 pm

You don't drive around with your seatbelt off and say, "I'll have time to fasten it before the wreck."
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby parabelum » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:50 pm

Jago668 wrote:You don't drive around with your seatbelt off and say, "I'll have time to fasten it before the wreck."


That's a pretty good analogy.
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:09 pm

parabelum wrote:
Jago668 wrote:You don't drive around with your seatbelt off and say, "I'll have time to fasten it before the wreck."


That's a pretty good analogy.

Yes it is! I'm going to use that in classes.

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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby steveincowtown » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:28 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
parabelum wrote:
Jago668 wrote:You don't drive around with your seatbelt off and say, "I'll have time to fasten it before the wreck."


That's a pretty good analogy.

Yes it is! I'm going to use that in classes.

Chas.


Not to create thread drift, but you will also get a kick out of Delaware's helmet law. It must be in your possession, but doesn't have to be worn if your are over 19.

Part III. Operation and Equipment. Chapter 41. Rules of the Road. Subchapter XI. Miscellaneous Rules. Section 4185:

" . . . (b) Every person operating or riding on a motorcycle shall have in that person's possession a safety helmet approved by the Secretary of Public Safety and shall wear eye protection approved by the Secretary; provided, however, that every person up to 19 years of age operating or riding on a motorcycle shall wear a safety helmet and eye protection approved by the Secretary."


When I lived on the East Coast I could never figure out why they would pass a law like this. Most Motorcycle wrecks I have witnessed did not provide the opportunity to dawn a helmet.
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby ELB » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:40 pm

NNT wrote: .... that closer than 21 feet it is impossible to draw before the BG is on you. ...


Umm, maybe, sort of...

There is nothing holy...or legal...or illegal... about 21 feet. It roughly corresponds to the distance that a lot of people can cover in about 1.5 seconds if they are trying hard, and 1.5 seconds also roughly corresponds to the time required for a lot of people to draw and get the first shot off.

And this is all with people who know what's going on, they're on a range where they know the are about to have to draw and shoot as fast as possible. They are not at the convenience store checking the expiration date on a container of milk.

People who practice and are ready or forewarned, can draw in less than 1.5 seconds. On the other hand, a lot criminals do not stand 21 feet away and signal that they are attacking, either. They work to get in your face first, then launch. The bad guy has the initiative, he knows what he is going to do, but you don't, until he moves. Then you have to notice it, recognize it for what it is, decide what to do about it, and then do it. Then the actual draw starts...

People who have no other self-defense option than to draw and shoot in danger of trying solve a nut and bolt problem with a took designed for nail. Other options like getting off the X, punching, attacking the attacker's weapon, etc may be better options, depending on the distance, geometry, and weapons in the situation. But of course you have to have the skills to do those things.

Here are a couple decent articles about "the 21 foot rule" and/or "the Tueller Drill." One of them features Dennis Tueller himself. Worth a read.

Featuring Tueller: https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-tu ... -revisited

Also: http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firea ... le-at-all/

I don't have sound on my computer at the moment, so all I got from the video was the movements, not the narration. It appeared to me that the victim was initially at a disadvantage because the robber had the initiative. The victim looked pretty rattled, it took a moment for him to respond , and initially he chose to comply, which bought him some time -- good move. It gave him a chance to take the initiative, to move away, to maybe get to edge of the robber's vision, and to execute a draw. Now the robber was the one who had to deal with his own reaction time, figure out that the tables were turned, decide what to do about. Unfortunately for the victim, not having a round in the chamber and having execute a slide-rack gave the robber enough time to work through his reaction -- and the robber was already keyed up and on alert.
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby rotor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:45 pm

If you read the youtube comments they mention that there is a blood trail at about 30+ seconds or at least it so appears. This is before he goes for his gun. His fate may have been decided before he could do anything. Perhaps he might have been able to get a shot at one of his attackers if he had one in the chamber. There are pure evil people in this world.


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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby NotRPB » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:29 pm

I like that seatbelt analogy too
Texas law on Kayaking, Adults must have a life jacket on the watercraft, but aren't required to be wearing it if an adult.
However every year there are adults drowning while kayaking and I keep hearing and reading "I never had to bury a kayaker that was actually wearing the life preserver yet"


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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby SewTexas » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:38 pm

steveincowtown wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
parabelum wrote:
Jago668 wrote:You don't drive around with your seatbelt off and say, "I'll have time to fasten it before the wreck."


That's a pretty good analogy.

Yes it is! I'm going to use that in classes.

Chas.


Not to create thread drift, but you will also get a kick out of Delaware's helmet law. It must be in your possession, but doesn't have to be worn if your are over 19.

Part III. Operation and Equipment. Chapter 41. Rules of the Road. Subchapter XI. Miscellaneous Rules. Section 4185:

" . . . (b) Every person operating or riding on a motorcycle shall have in that person's possession a safety helmet approved by the Secretary of Public Safety and shall wear eye protection approved by the Secretary; provided, however, that every person up to 19 years of age operating or riding on a motorcycle shall wear a safety helmet and eye protection approved by the Secretary."


When I lived on the East Coast I could never figure out why they would pass a law like this. Most Motorcycle wrecks I have witnessed did not provide the opportunity to dawn a helmet.



I've seen guys riding with a helmet on the back on one side....my husband will say, well, his hip will survive at least.
After my husband's helmet saved his life, I just don't understand why anyone would ride without one. Well, God's angels saved his life, but the helmet probably did some work, too.
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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!

Postby cmgee67 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:44 pm

I've always said one in the pipe or you just have a rock. This is a clear example. His son and him took the room temperature challenge because he wasn't ready for the fight. Could he have survived if it was loaded? Possibly. Would he have still died if it was? Possibly. Would both him and his son still be alive had he of just let them leave? Possibly. the fact is he had his greatest chance of survival if it had been chambered. Prayers for the family
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