Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

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Salty1
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby Salty1 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:52 pm

JakeTheSnake wrote:
Salty1 wrote:Maybe somebody can explain that rationale behind wanting these to be legal to carry because I cannot think of a single instance where they would be beneficial to law abiding citizens. It seems to me that the use of these alone would constitute deadly force. I can see itnow, if they are legalized then they will be used in the thugs knockout "games". No thanks.......

So they should outlaw AR15's then so crazies won't walk into schools and nightclubs too?


Your comment is not even worthy of a response if you do not have the sense to realize the difference........

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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby JakeTheSnake » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:56 pm

Salty1 wrote:
JakeTheSnake wrote:
Salty1 wrote:Maybe somebody can explain that rationale behind wanting these to be legal to carry because I cannot think of a single instance where they would be beneficial to law abiding citizens. It seems to me that the use of these alone would constitute deadly force. I can see itnow, if they are legalized then they will be used in the thugs knockout "games". No thanks.......

So they should outlaw AR15's then so crazies won't walk into schools and nightclubs too?


Your comment is not even worthy of a response if you do not have the sense to realize the difference........

Ok then, explain to me the rationale that a thug is going to obey the law in the first place?
If they are legalized, criminals will use them legally? Wow, just wow.

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mojo84
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby mojo84 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:22 pm

steveincowtown wrote:
mojo84 wrote:I haven't seen any widespread interest in getting these things legalized and I do not believe it worth any political capital or energy to do so.


Maybe LEOs could just read the law, and then enforce it as written. Not sure we need new laws to clarify what is written in a law already on the books.

I carry as ASP daily while walking my dog (while carrying a handgun under my LTC).

Due to the nature of the area I live in we are not only a frequent dumping ground for unwanted pets, we back up to a fairly wild area of green belt. I much rather have the choice to wack a threatening stray dog with my ASP then to have to use my sidearm.


I am beside myself that someone had to spend $5,000 to not get charged.

We need "loser pays" in Texas.


Loser pays is for civil suits. What does you carry an asp have to do with expending the effort to legalize brass knuckles which is what my comment was about?

Are you implying both an asp and brass knuckles are already legal to carry?

By the way, laws are modified and clarified all the time without adding new ones.

What exactly is your problem with my comment?
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby steveincowtown » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:44 am

mojo84 wrote:
steveincowtown wrote:
mojo84 wrote:I haven't seen any widespread interest in getting these things legalized and I do not believe it worth any political capital or energy to do so.


Maybe LEOs could just read the law, and then enforce it as written. Not sure we need new laws to clarify what is written in a law already on the books.

I carry as ASP daily while walking my dog (while carrying a handgun under my LTC).

Due to the nature of the area I live in we are not only a frequent dumping ground for unwanted pets, we back up to a fairly wild area of green belt. I much rather have the choice to wack a threatening stray dog with my ASP then to have to use my sidearm.


I am beside myself that someone had to spend $5,000 to not get charged.

We need "loser pays" in Texas.


Loser pays is for civil suits. What does you carry an asp have to do with expending the effort to legalize brass knuckles which is what my comment was about?


I am aware that loser pays is for civil suits. I do not believe LEOs should be able to turn over cases to DAs that have no basis in what the law says. In the case discussed in this thread someone had to spend $5,000 to keep themselves from getting charged with an imaginary offense. This is not right.

mojo84 wrote:Are you implying both an asp and brass knuckles are already legal to carry?


Not implying anything. The law says what the law says (IANAL, YMMV).

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:


Which includes ASP, and Knuckles, etc


Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:……<Snip>….
(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster;




mojo84 wrote:By the way, laws are modified and clarified all the time without adding new ones.


Thanks again.


mojo84 wrote:What exactly is your problem with my comment?


No problem, just discussion. I don't think it is worth the political capital do legalize them either since (IANAL, YMMV) the law clearly states that if you hold an LTC, and are carrying under the authority of that LTC, the items stated as prohibited in 46.02 are no longer prohibited. I cannot speak to legislative intent, etc. I can just read the law as written.
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby mojo84 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:57 am

steveincowtown wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
steveincowtown wrote:
mojo84 wrote:I haven't seen any widespread interest in getting these things legalized and I do not believe it worth any political capital or energy to do so.


Maybe LEOs could just read the law, and then enforce it as written. Not sure we need new laws to clarify what is written in a law already on the books.

I carry as ASP daily while walking my dog (while carrying a handgun under my LTC).

Due to the nature of the area I live in we are not only a frequent dumping ground for unwanted pets, we back up to a fairly wild area of green belt. I much rather have the choice to wack a threatening stray dog with my ASP then to have to use my sidearm.


I am beside myself that someone had to spend $5,000 to not get charged.

We need "loser pays" in Texas.


Loser pays is for civil suits. What does you carry an asp have to do with expending the effort to legalize brass knuckles which is what my comment was about?


I am aware that loser pays is for civil suits. I do not believe LEOs should be able to turn over cases to DAs that have no basis in what the law says. In the case discussed in this thread someone had to spend $5,000 to keep themselves from getting charged with an imaginary offense. This is not right.

mojo84 wrote:Are you implying both an asp and brass knuckles are already legal to carry?


Not implying anything. The law says what the law says (IANAL, YMMV).

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:


Which includes ASP, and Knuckles, etc


Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:……<Snip>….
(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster;




mojo84 wrote:By the way, laws are modified and clarified all the time without adding new ones.


Thanks again.


mojo84 wrote:What exactly is your problem with my comment?


No problem, just discussion. I don't think it is worth the political capital do legalize them either since (IANAL, YMMV) the law clearly states that if you hold an LTC, and are carrying under the authority of that LTC, the items stated as prohibited in 46.02 are no longer prohibited. I cannot speak to legislative intent, etc. I can just read the law as written.


The law does not say asps or expandable batons are illegal to own, possess and have as it does knuckles. That's the difference. You are conflating two different issues. This discussion is about knuckles and not expandable batons. It would take legislative capital and energy to pass legislation making knuckles legal to own, posses, carry etc.

Do you really think a cop should pay if someone isn't convicted?
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby steveincowtown » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:16 am

mojo84 wrote:
The law does not say asps or expandable batons are illegal to own, possess and have as it does knuckles. That's the difference. You are conflating two different issues. This discussion is about knuckles and not expandable batons. It would take legislative capital and energy to pass legislation making knuckles legal to own, posses, carry etc.


After re reading I stand corrected in regards to knuckles.

mojo84 wrote:Do you really think a cop should pay if someone isn't convicted?


The discussion about the knife case probably needs its own thread. If an LEO is willfully ignorant of the law and brings someone in for an imaginary charge that the DA will not even pursue, there should be repercussions. I am not talking about a case where it goes to trial, etc. I am talking about cases like this one where someone saw the law, presumably had the training to understand the law, and arrested a person that was not in violation of that law anyhow.
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby mojo84 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:33 am

steveincowtown wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
The law does not say asps or expandable batons are illegal to own, possess and have as it does knuckles. That's the difference. You are conflating two different issues. This discussion is about knuckles and not expandable batons. It would take legislative capital and energy to pass legislation making knuckles legal to own, posses, carry etc.


After re reading I stand corrected in regards to knuckles.

mojo84 wrote:Do you really think a cop should pay if someone isn't convicted?


The discussion about the knife case probably needs its own thread. If an LEO is willfully ignorant of the law and brings someone in for an imaginary charge that the DA will not even pursue, there should be repercussions. I am not talking about a case where it goes to trial, etc. I am talking about cases like this one where someone saw the law, presumably had the training to understand the law, and arrested a person that was not in violation of that law anyhow.


In the case of a cop making a false arrest, there are already laws and consequences that deal with this.

I know we've had cops on here before that said there's no way for them to know all of the laws and they go through with the arrest and let the DA's and courts sort things out. I agree with you that is not acceptable and that we need the officers that do that to be held accountable. I also believe the arrestee should be reimbursed for legal expenses by the government entity for whom the officer works if there is a false arrest on such grounds.
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:35 am

Salty1 wrote:
JakeTheSnake wrote:
Salty1 wrote:Maybe somebody can explain that rationale behind wanting these to be legal to carry because I cannot think of a single instance where they would be beneficial to law abiding citizens. It seems to me that the use of these alone would constitute deadly force. I can see itnow, if they are legalized then they will be used in the thugs knockout "games". No thanks.......

So they should outlaw AR15's then so crazies won't walk into schools and nightclubs too?


Your comment is not even worthy of a response if you do not have the sense to realize the difference........


The difference is in the eye of the beholder. Both knuckles and AR15's have been demonized and characterized as weapons that have no reasonable use other than for nefarious purposes. To you, knuckles are something that only criminals would need / use. To a lot of the public, an AR15 is only something that a "crazy" anti-government militia member / or terrorist would need / use. I think that is the point Jake was making.

This gets a lot simpler if we put the onus where it belongs. Unless there is a compelling reason to restrict a type of arm, then we should not have any infringement. Otherwise, you will ban everything you don't see a "legitimate" use for, like knuckles, and others will ban everything they don't see a legitimate use for, like AR15's. Pretty soon we will be talking about whether anyone has a legitimate need to legally possess a rock.
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby apvonkanel » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:55 am

The rationale with a LTC carrying nullifying the clause with illegal knives, knuckles, is actually tied to the fact that 46.02(a) reads "(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not..."

The law groups all weapons. Legally if you're carrying with an LTC you nullify the part where it says you can't carry a handgun. Since illegal knives and clubs are grouped with it, it also give you freedom to carry them.

Being a fan of clubs and knives (not specifically as practical, viable weapons, but just because they're cool), I like the idea of not being outlawed. I added a balisong (aka butterfly) and switchblade to my carry-knife rotation once they became legalized, just because I could. However, I see no legal reason or actual benefit to legalizing knuckles (of which I also own an assortment). I'm not against them being legalized by any means, but it comes down to the question of "why". Gun free zones would become "weapon free zones", and 30.06 and .07 signs would see "handgun" replaced with the word "weapon". At that point, there's no legally justifiable need for carrying of clubs, knuckles, swords, or battleaxes. You can carry the currently most effective piece of self defense equipment without changing the law to add the fun toys (which is what I consider clubs, knuckles, and all the other illegal to carry weapons). So I see little motivation to have the laws changed. Also, if you aren't legally qualified to carry a handgun, good luck convincing anyone you should be able to legally carry a different weapon.

I want to reiterate, I'm not against the legalization of these items. I'm simply pointing out that getting them legalized is even more of an uphill battle than gun rights because justifying it would be difficult with the current mindset of 2a only applying to guns. And that brings up the question of limiting our 2A rights by treating it as if "arms" only means guns.
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby MechAg94 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Beyond "I just want to", what is the benefit of carrying brass knuckles? They are still considered deadly weapons so you don't get any credit for using them instead of a knife or gun. They might be easier to carry than a gun. But just like a knife, to use it, you have to be close in. Just curious how you are looking at that.

As far as getting rid of unnecessary laws, I agree that them being illegal to carry doesn't accomplish much. If someone used them in a bar fight or a knockout-game, it could be weighed the same as having used a knife or gun. I would prefer knife rights preemption before legalizing brass knuckles.


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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:17 pm

MechAg94 wrote:Beyond "I just want to", what is the benefit of carrying brass knuckles? They are still considered deadly weapons so you don't get any credit for using them instead of a knife or gun. They might be easier to carry than a gun. But just like a knife, to use it, you have to be close in. Just curious how you are looking at that.

As far as getting rid of unnecessary laws, I agree that them being illegal to carry doesn't accomplish much. If someone used them in a bar fight or a knockout-game, it could be weighed the same as having used a knife or gun. I would prefer knife rights preemption before legalizing brass knuckles.


I can't speak to the tactical advantages of knuckles vs knives, but given the statement up-thread that LEO's used to opt for knuckles, there must be at least a perceived advantage to some people. I would focus more on whether there is a compelling reason for them to be illegal.
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby mojo84 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:52 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
MechAg94 wrote:Beyond "I just want to", what is the benefit of carrying brass knuckles? They are still considered deadly weapons so you don't get any credit for using them instead of a knife or gun. They might be easier to carry than a gun. But just like a knife, to use it, you have to be close in. Just curious how you are looking at that.

As far as getting rid of unnecessary laws, I agree that them being illegal to carry doesn't accomplish much. If someone used them in a bar fight or a knockout-game, it could be weighed the same as having used a knife or gun. I would prefer knife rights preemption before legalizing brass knuckles.


I can't speak to the tactical advantages of knuckles vs knives, but given the statement up-thread that LEO's used to opt for knuckles, there must be at least a perceived advantage to some people. I would focus more on whether there is a compelling reason for them to be illegal.


I suspect knuckles and slapjacks were carried by cops back when streetside "justice" was dispensed more regularly. Such as that has fround upon as of late.
******TRIGGER WARNING****** If offended, go find yourself a safe place and color a pretty picture.

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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby apvonkanel » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:39 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
MechAg94 wrote:Beyond "I just want to", what is the benefit of carrying brass knuckles? They are still considered deadly weapons so you don't get any credit for using them instead of a knife or gun. They might be easier to carry than a gun. But just like a knife, to use it, you have to be close in. Just curious how you are looking at that.

As far as getting rid of unnecessary laws, I agree that them being illegal to carry doesn't accomplish much. If someone used them in a bar fight or a knockout-game, it could be weighed the same as having used a knife or gun. I would prefer knife rights preemption before legalizing brass knuckles.


I can't speak to the tactical advantages of knuckles vs knives, but given the statement up-thread that LEO's used to opt for knuckles, there must be at least a perceived advantage to some people. I would focus more on whether there is a compelling reason for them to be illegal.


I wouldn't say a tactical advantage, but definitely a tactical difference. It's harder to take knuckles off someone than it is a knife, and it's harder to hurt someone wielding the knuckles with the knuckles than it is to hurt a knife-wielder with the knife.
Also, a knife cut looks like a knife cut. Knuckle, sap, and blackjack (my personal favorite) hits can look like they tripped and fell.

Compelling reason for them to be illegal? Only public hysteria, much like with balisongs and switchblades. They became perceived as criminal weapons of choice, so they were banned.

You ever dead-leg someone with a blackjack or brass knuckles? Fun times in my early 20's.
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Re: Bills legalizing knuckle possession?

Postby MechAg94 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:14 am

By tactical advantages, I was thinking about self defense. If you were already in a fist fight or thought you would be, knuckles might be a big help. But that assumes you are already in a bad defensive position anyway. I figure I am far more capable with a pistol than I would be with brass knuckles or even a knife.

I don't see them as an alternative to more capable weapons for defense. They might be a good secondary weapon to have on you similar to a good pocket knife.


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