Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:12 am

Lambda Force wrote:I think I have a pretty good idea what the founding fathers would think of asset forfeiture without a trial.

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

Yep! I have VERY strong opinions about it because I hate injustice, in any form. I hate it even more when the person who perpetrates it claims to be God-fearing. MY Bible says:
Micah 6:8English Standard Version (ESV)

8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,[a]
and to walk humbly with your God?

What allegedly Christian cop who steals your assets without any due process is doing justice, loving kindness, and walking humbly with his God? The answer is exactly none.

And do you know what legal fiction is used to "justify" it? The person who holds the assets hasn't been proven guilty in a court of law, but the assets have been determined to be guilty, and since the assets aren't people, they allegedly aren't protected by the Constitution, no no trial is necessary to determine the guilt. So if you have too much legal tender on your person, the legal tender MUST be guilty by association with drug sales or other criminal activity, because "normal" citizens don't carry that much legal tender.........which is of course HOGWASH!!!!

Whenever I take a road trip for more than a day or two, I ALWAYS carry a large amount of cash as an emergency measure - say $2K or so - in the event that I have major car or medical problems, and a credit card is either going to be maxed out, or a card won't be accepted. The cash was obtained entirely legally, over a long time, and it is a small part of my general preps, so I've had it for a long time. Any sensible person who is blessed with the resources to do so keeps a ready supply of cash on hand for emergencies. Under asset forfeiture law, that makes you suspicious, and so your emergency cash must get confiscated so that you never again commit the crime of being prepared for an emergency.

So if I get pulled over in Oklahoma by an overzealous OK State Trooper (where they have a BIG problem with illegitimate asset forfeitures that state legislators are working on a bill to ban it), and I'm automatically a criminal and treated like one because Bubba needs a new gadget for his squad car. The board does not allow the kind of language that crap deserves. And the way the law is written, it will in most cases cost you more in legal fees to get your money back.......AND THE POLICE KNOW IT!!!! So they feel completely comfortable in taking it, knowing there will most likely not be any consequences for their theft of your assets. AND.....in the unlikely event that someone is so PO'd that they DO take it to court, and they DO prevail, these thieving cops and DA's know that you'll only get pennies back on the dollar, because they'll make it SO expensive in legal fees to recoup all of your losses, that you'll settle for a reduced amount in exchange for quitting them of any further liability.

There is exactly ZERO moral difference between asset forfeiture in a large number of the cases, and what the mafia does. They are merely criminal thugs operating under the color of the law. I hate them, and I hope this law gets federally repealed.

Other than that, I have no particular opinion in the matter......

If you are a cop, and you suspect that someone is dealing crack or whatever, get them the old fashioned way. Asset forfeiture, in addition to being immoral and unconstitutional, is just plain lazy police work, in which police agencies are willing to substitute theft for catching criminals and arresting them.

It is a despicable practice. There is no bottom to how poorly I view the practice, or the lowdown thieves who practice it. They are immoral thugs of the worst order. They are the orcs of law enforcement. I think of their actions on the lives of most people the same way a farmer feels about wild hogs in his fields.

And before anyone jumps to some kind of defense of the practice as legitimate, let me remind you that in MOST cases where it happens, law enforcement never really knows if the person they stole from is guilty of a crime. Why? Becaused in most cases they don't CHARGE them with a crime, and there is NO TRIAL to determine guilt. They punish, without a trial, and regardless of ACTUAL guilt or innocence. You've not nothing to hide, you say? How will you feel about it when you get pulled over for driving while black (or redneck, or Hispanic, or whatever), and the cop decides that you couldn't possibly be a doctor or lawyer, and so that $75K Mercedes you're driving must have been obtained through illicit means, and he just TAKES it. Then it costs you at least $50K in legal fees to get back a used car that cost you $75K, but you couldn't sell today for more than $40K. And when you get your money, you've settled for 30K......or maybe even less.

THAT is what these fascists are counting on.
"Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself."—Hookalakah Meshobbab
"I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes."—The Annoyed Boy
"Id aegre et in omnibus semper."—Quod Homo Aegre

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Jusme
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby Jusme » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:41 am

I fully agree TAM, this is a law that is rife with abuses. I was still a LEO when this was first proposed, and on the face of it, the idea sounded like a good way for municipalities,, to help offset the costs associated with prosecuting drug dealers, and other criminal enterprises. But without the requirement of conviction, or even prosecution in some cases, it became no more than highway robbery, perpetrated by LEO, and their agencies filling their coffers.

I have no problem, with a "convicted" drug dealer being required to surrender any assets, either used in the commission of the offense, or as fruits of the enterprise, but, without due process, this is a complete slap in the face of the framers of the Constitution. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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bblhd672
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby bblhd672 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:46 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Lambda Force wrote:I think I have a pretty good idea what the founding fathers would think of asset forfeiture without a trial.

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

Yep! I have VERY strong opinions about it because I hate injustice, in any form. I hate it even more when the person who perpetrates it claims to be God-fearing. MY Bible says:
Micah 6:8English Standard Version (ESV)

8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,[a]
and to walk humbly with your God?

What allegedly Christian cop who steals your assets without any due process is doing justice, loving kindness, and walking humbly with his God? The answer is exactly none.

And do you know what legal fiction is used to "justify" it? The person who holds the assets hasn't been proven guilty in a court of law, but the assets have been determined to be guilty, and since the assets aren't people, they allegedly aren't protected by the Constitution, no no trial is necessary to determine the guilt. So if you have too much legal tender on your person, the legal tender MUST be guilty by association with drug sales or other criminal activity, because "normal" citizens don't carry that much legal tender.........which is of course HOGWASH!!!!

Whenever I take a road trip for more than a day or two, I ALWAYS carry a large amount of cash as an emergency measure - say $2K or so - in the event that I have major car or medical problems, and a credit card is either going to be maxed out, or a card won't be accepted. The cash was obtained entirely legally, over a long time, and it is a small part of my general preps, so I've had it for a long time. Any sensible person who is blessed with the resources to do so keeps a ready supply of cash on hand for emergencies. Under asset forfeiture law, that makes you suspicious, and so your emergency cash must get confiscated so that you never again commit the crime of being prepared for an emergency.

So if I get pulled over in Oklahoma by an overzealous OK State Trooper (where they have a BIG problem with illegitimate asset forfeitures that state legislators are working on a bill to ban it), and I'm automatically a criminal and treated like one because Bubba needs a new gadget for his squad car. The board does not allow the kind of language that crap deserves. And the way the law is written, it will in most cases cost you more in legal fees to get your money back.......AND THE POLICE KNOW IT!!!! So they feel completely comfortable in taking it, knowing there will most likely not be any consequences for their theft of your assets. AND.....in the unlikely event that someone is so PO'd that they DO take it to court, and they DO prevail, these thieving cops and DA's know that you'll only get pennies back on the dollar, because they'll make it SO expensive in legal fees to recoup all of your losses, that you'll settle for a reduced amount in exchange for quitting them of any further liability.

There is exactly ZERO moral difference between asset forfeiture in a large number of the cases, and what the mafia does. They are merely criminal thugs operating under the color of the law. I hate them, and I hope this law gets federally repealed.

Other than that, I have no particular opinion in the matter......

If you are a cop, and you suspect that someone is dealing crack or whatever, get them the old fashioned way. Asset forfeiture, in addition to being immoral and unconstitutional, is just plain lazy police work, in which police agencies are willing to substitute theft for catching criminals and arresting them.

It is a despicable practice. There is no bottom to how poorly I view the practice, or the lowdown thieves who practice it. They are immoral thugs of the worst order. They are the orcs of law enforcement. I think of their actions on the lives of most people the same way a farmer feels about wild hogs in his fields.

And before anyone jumps to some kind of defense of the practice as legitimate, let me remind you that in MOST cases where it happens, law enforcement never really knows if the person they stole from is guilty of a crime. Why? Becaused in most cases they don't CHARGE them with a crime, and there is NO TRIAL to determine guilt. They punish, without a trial, and regardless of ACTUAL guilt or innocence. You've not nothing to hide, you say? How will you feel about it when you get pulled over for driving while black (or redneck, or Hispanic, or whatever), and the cop decides that you couldn't possibly be a doctor or lawyer, and so that $75K Mercedes you're driving must have been obtained through illicit means, and he just TAKES it. Then it costs you at least $50K in legal fees to get back a used car that cost you $75K, but you couldn't sell today for more than $40K. And when you get your money, you've settled for 30K......or maybe even less.

THAT is what these fascists are counting on.


We are increasingly living in a police state with boots upon our necks. No one at any level of government with either a D, R or I behind their name seems to care one whit about honest, law abiding citizens and leaving us alone to live our lives in peace. Every bit of liberty and freedom the founders wanted for this country has been trampled underfoot by those who love the power wielded by King George III.
NRA Life Member, TSRA Member
“What ‘gun law’ would have prevented the Las Vegas massacre?”


Soccerdad1995
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:12 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Lambda Force wrote:I think I have a pretty good idea what the founding fathers would think of asset forfeiture without a trial.

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

Yep! I have VERY strong opinions about it because I hate injustice, in any form. I hate it even more when the person who perpetrates it claims to be God-fearing. MY Bible says:
Micah 6:8English Standard Version (ESV)

8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,[a]
and to walk humbly with your God?

What allegedly Christian cop who steals your assets without any due process is doing justice, loving kindness, and walking humbly with his God? The answer is exactly none.

And do you know what legal fiction is used to "justify" it? The person who holds the assets hasn't been proven guilty in a court of law, but the assets have been determined to be guilty, and since the assets aren't people, they allegedly aren't protected by the Constitution, no no trial is necessary to determine the guilt. So if you have too much legal tender on your person, the legal tender MUST be guilty by association with drug sales or other criminal activity, because "normal" citizens don't carry that much legal tender.........which is of course HOGWASH!!!!

Whenever I take a road trip for more than a day or two, I ALWAYS carry a large amount of cash as an emergency measure - say $2K or so - in the event that I have major car or medical problems, and a credit card is either going to be maxed out, or a card won't be accepted. The cash was obtained entirely legally, over a long time, and it is a small part of my general preps, so I've had it for a long time. Any sensible person who is blessed with the resources to do so keeps a ready supply of cash on hand for emergencies. Under asset forfeiture law, that makes you suspicious, and so your emergency cash must get confiscated so that you never again commit the crime of being prepared for an emergency.

So if I get pulled over in Oklahoma by an overzealous OK State Trooper (where they have a BIG problem with illegitimate asset forfeitures that state legislators are working on a bill to ban it), and I'm automatically a criminal and treated like one because Bubba needs a new gadget for his squad car. The board does not allow the kind of language that crap deserves. And the way the law is written, it will in most cases cost you more in legal fees to get your money back.......AND THE POLICE KNOW IT!!!! So they feel completely comfortable in taking it, knowing there will most likely not be any consequences for their theft of your assets. AND.....in the unlikely event that someone is so PO'd that they DO take it to court, and they DO prevail, these thieving cops and DA's know that you'll only get pennies back on the dollar, because they'll make it SO expensive in legal fees to recoup all of your losses, that you'll settle for a reduced amount in exchange for quitting them of any further liability.

There is exactly ZERO moral difference between asset forfeiture in a large number of the cases, and what the mafia does. They are merely criminal thugs operating under the color of the law. I hate them, and I hope this law gets federally repealed.

Other than that, I have no particular opinion in the matter......

If you are a cop, and you suspect that someone is dealing crack or whatever, get them the old fashioned way. Asset forfeiture, in addition to being immoral and unconstitutional, is just plain lazy police work, in which police agencies are willing to substitute theft for catching criminals and arresting them.

It is a despicable practice. There is no bottom to how poorly I view the practice, or the lowdown thieves who practice it. They are immoral thugs of the worst order. They are the orcs of law enforcement. I think of their actions on the lives of most people the same way a farmer feels about wild hogs in his fields.

And before anyone jumps to some kind of defense of the practice as legitimate, let me remind you that in MOST cases where it happens, law enforcement never really knows if the person they stole from is guilty of a crime. Why? Becaused in most cases they don't CHARGE them with a crime, and there is NO TRIAL to determine guilt. They punish, without a trial, and regardless of ACTUAL guilt or innocence. You've not nothing to hide, you say? How will you feel about it when you get pulled over for driving while black (or redneck, or Hispanic, or whatever), and the cop decides that you couldn't possibly be a doctor or lawyer, and so that $75K Mercedes you're driving must have been obtained through illicit means, and he just TAKES it. Then it costs you at least $50K in legal fees to get back a used car that cost you $75K, but you couldn't sell today for more than $40K. And when you get your money, you've settled for 30K......or maybe even less.

THAT is what these fascists are counting on.


:iagree:

And this is a prime example of why we need all of our rights, particularly those referenced in the 1st and 2nd amendments.
Ding dong, the witch is dead

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby The Annoyed Man » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:56 pm

The DEA has stolen hundreds of millions of $$ in the last decade. In a recent case, the person sued to get their money back - $25K was stolen by the DEA from someone who was on their way to buy a used truck in California - and the DEA was forced to return it......but kept $4000 of it because "prosecutors concluded that “a small percentage of the funds should be forfeited.""

.....because, despite a lack of due process for the person they stole it from, "they concluded"...........

They can, will, and do steal money all the time from people who are never charged with anything. They are dirty thieves, and they get away with it. It's outrageous.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/08/10/dea-travel-record-airport-seizures/88474282/
"Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself."—Hookalakah Meshobbab
"I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes."—The Annoyed Boy
"Id aegre et in omnibus semper."—Quod Homo Aegre


RossA
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby RossA » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:39 pm

:iagree:
God and the soldier we adore,
In times of danger, not before.
The danger gone, the trouble righted,
God's forgotten, the soldier slighted.


Soccerdad1995
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:49 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:The DEA has stolen hundreds of millions of $$ in the last decade. In a recent case, the person sued to get their money back - $25K was stolen by the DEA from someone who was on their way to buy a used truck in California - and the DEA was forced to return it......but kept $4000 of it because "prosecutors concluded that “a small percentage of the funds should be forfeited.""

.....because, despite a lack of due process for the person they stole it from, "they concluded"...........

They can, will, and do steal money all the time from people who are never charged with anything. They are dirty thieves, and they get away with it. It's outrageous.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/08/10/dea-travel-record-airport-seizures/88474282/


I have told my teenage kids that if we are ever stopped by police, they are at risk of LEO's stealing their phones, iPads, cash, and anything else the officer might want. They thought I was joking until I had them read a few stories about this. And they now understand why I will never consent to any searches. No need to tempt a thief who might take a fancy to something they find.

This situation is a huge stain on this country, and also on the men and women who wear a badge.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


earlwb
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Re: Anti Asset Forfeiture bill?

Postby earlwb » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:45 am

It needs a due process system in place. Years ago it seemed like a good idea until they started abusing it and just seizing money and property for the slimmest of reasons. it turned into a "for profit" enterprise instead. So yes it needs some rules in place to help protect the people more. I have known people getting caught up in this and losing just about everything because of it.


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