Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

There is seemingly no end to the extent to which anti-gun people and groups will lie about guns and gun owners. Post links to articles by these masters of prevarication here.

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Noggin
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Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby Noggin » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:49 pm

I believe that most people in the USA who are pro-gun have got things wrong. OK now that I have sent the blood pressure of everyone else on this forum up through the stratosphere I should perhaps explain myself and hope that you will take the trouble to read further.

No I have not turned into Piers Morgan's clone and I am not about to sell my handguns and rifles – sorry no eBay bargains on the way. That said I do think many people in this country overlook some of the more subtle motives that drive the Liberal mind-set. Now it may take me a little time to get to the key-point of my argument so please bear with me.

Many years ago I remember a British WW2 vet talking about disarming German civilians in towns and villages as his unit advanced into Germany in early 1945. He and his mates were stunned by the number of firearms rounded up from the population. He stressed that was just sporting and hunting weapons not military equipment. He could not believe how well armed most German civilians were compared to their UK equivalents. Now I suspect that most American soldiers performing similar tasks at the same time did not see anything unusual but then they were not from a largely gun free civilian culture. So it seems that despite everything else you could say about the Nazis unless you were one of the sub-human races or a socialist/communist or liberal agitator, then as a good German you could keep your hunting rifle even if it was registered.

Then we fast forward to the 1990s and the implosion of the communist block. Lots of little wars popping up all over the Balkans and in Caucasus, where it every man and his dog seemed to have a firearm. These were not places that had been known for their civil liberties for many decades, yet it seemed almost everyone had a gun.

Then we invade Iraq and again the whole place seems to be awash with weapons.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that really ruthless hard line totalitarian regimes, are not too worried if their people get access to small arms. After all if you are an absolute dictatorship, freedom of speech, public opinion and censorship are hardly things you need to worry about. So if some city or village decides to give you a bit of trouble, then send in an SS Panzer Division or carpet bomb the place with Sarin or Mustard Gas. If you are an evil overlord collateral damage is like omelettes and egg shells.

Ah! but if you are a supposedly Liberal Democratic Government the play-book needs to be a little different. Now that does not mean that you don't want control over your populace, you most certainly do. You still want to push through your social engineering policies to maintain your position, however putting tanks on the streets to do it will not fit your “flower child”, “tree hugging”, metro-sexual, social justice image. You will want to be able to control your people and keep them pacified without military hardware because if you have to resort to those tools your liberal credibility takes a severe hit, you might even loose an election.

A nice liberal government wants to be able to keep that masses under control with water cannon, tear gas and tasers. Now of course that idea will not work as long as you have ordinary citizens armed with things that shoot real bullets.

This brings me to the core of my argument. Having citizens equipped with small arms would not be enough to prevent the takeover of the country, by a hostile government employing the full array of 21st century military resources (assuming that all the military personnel cooperate with said government). What an armed citizenry does do is force any such government to either accept military losses which may undermine its support within the military or force it to use excessive firepower, such as thermobaric weapons which destroy its liberal self image.

Finally some of you are saying i forgot about ordinary armed criminals. Well liberal governments may use armed force against those to a limited extent meanwhile excusing criminal behaviour by blaming it on the social injustice caused by law abiding citizens. Then of course they will manipulate the crime statistics to make things look better than they are.
Last edited by Noggin on Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby twomillenium » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:03 pm

I tend to think that just because you have just figured this out, doesn't mean "Pro Gun Supporters" have not already figured it out.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby Noggin » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:09 pm

twomillenium wrote:I tend to think that just because you have just figured this out, doesn't mean "Pro Gun Supporters" have not already figured it out.


I do not claim to have greater insight than any other person. I formed these thoughts a few years ago and have since then been puzzled why I have not heard anyone else express a similar idea.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:19 pm

The bottom line is that, with socialists / progressives / "social democrats" (whatever that is), the key is control of the population. If the population goes along with your leftist agenda, then there is no need to disarm them in order to exert that control. If you have to ram that agenda down the population's throat against their willing acquiescence, then you have to disarm them to make it stick. In WW2 Germany, it might not have been illegal for a good burger from some farming community to have a hunting rifle........unless he was a Jew, because it was MOST certainly illegal for Jews to own firearms. Why? Because they would never have consented to the "final solution"........they had to be dragged to it in cattle cars. Guns in Jewish hands would have most certainly made it costly to try and round them up for the camps. Witness the Warsaw Uprising as an example. All that in a supposedly progressive nation (naziism was, after all, national socialism for the workers), but one which, like most of Europe, was (and remains today) deeply anti-Semitic.

Modern liberals in America don't defend the 2nd Amendment for three main reasons:

(1) They agree with the leftist agenda and will willingly cooperate with it.
(2) They mostly don't have any kind of individual investment in firearms, so it isn't their ox being gored when draconian gun laws are passed.
(3) They have the same kind of opinion of gun-owners that 1940s Germans had of Jews - as troglodytes who should be suppressed because they are a stumbling block to the enactment of that leftist agenda.

Just look how common it is now to see opinions posted on the Internet these days, to the effect that gun owners should all be killed, or sent to concentration camps, or how (despite the evidence to the contrary) we are all a bunch of mouth-breathing privileged white racist rapist males.

Just as there was in 1940s Germany, there will be some liberals who may not like guns, and will support anti-gun legislation, but who will be personally uncomfortable with draconian treatment of gun owners.......and JUST like 1940s Germans, they'll keep their mouths shut because they know what's good for them. I do not mean to trivialize the holocaust, but in that sense, gun owners are America's Jews, when it comes to the left.

It really is all about control. If they don't need to force you to comply, then you can keep your guns.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby mcscanner » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:26 pm

Nicely said, "Oh, bearded one!" :iagree:
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby twomillenium » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:42 pm

Exactly TAM!
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby Jusme » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:52 pm

Good thought provoking post Noggin, but I think that the main difference between the US and late WWII Germany, is that Jewish and non Jewish alike had to register their guns, even single shot shotguns, so that the Reich knew exactly who had what type of weapons, to make for easy confiscation if they became deemed undesirable.
I have no doubt that there were several weapons unaccounted for, but they were few and far between, because the penalties were swift and severe, if found out.
Gun supporters, here in the US , know exactly how the process goes, to obtain such a registry, and stay constantly vigilant to prevent one, for that very reason. We are are also fully aware, that we as small arms owners would never stand a chance against a full on US military assault. Our greatest ally, is that our military men and women come from these same people, and would not blindly follow orders to attack their own.
The left constantly tries to fragment us, and promote in fighting within our ranks, but as Barry Hussein found out and even announced, we immediately cling to God, and Guns. That has been his greatest frustration, in that he has not been able to move us off those values, and in fact has done more to strengthen our ranks than any one in history.
There will always be the sheep who will blindly follow their leaders, and those who do so out of fear, but, I believe we have, admiredly shown that we will not be bowed, and use our votes and voices, to keep those who want to denigrate us at bay. JMHO
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby Pawpaw » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:10 pm

Also, don't be too sure the government will be able to bring all of that military power to bear on it's own citizens. Remember, our military is 100% volunteer and, as a whole, are largely conservative. Also, approximately 1/3 of all active duty military are from Texas. If the order ever came down to use military might against their families, friends and neighbors, large portions of the military will not comply. Some will actively refuse, others will simply fade away. Guess which side they are likely to show up on?

A certain number will comply and do whatever they're told, but I think that is going to be a very low percentage.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby parabelum » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:20 pm

Noggin wrote:The only conclusion I can draw from this is that really ruthless hard line totalitarian regimes, are not too worried if their people get access to small arms.

This brings me to the core of my argument. Having citizens equipped with small arms would not be enough to prevent the takeover of the country, by a hostile government employing the full array of 21st century military resources


I think you've got some decent points, aside from the ones I bolded out above.

Not to get esoteric and long winded, but, I can assure you and everyone reading this post, that had it not been for small arms, primitive ww2 surplus rifles, rusted out ammo (which still functioned incidentally), I would not be sitting here typing this very text.

Up against latest mig aircraft, tanks, heavy artillery and latest machine and submachine guns, we in Sarajevo were able to keep the parasites from killing us all with none other but small arms. Very old, almost antique guns that saved hundreds of thousands from falling into the those death camps in Srebrenica.

That's just my experience, and precisely why I now own a small arms arsenal myself.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby bblhd672 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:49 pm

Pawpaw wrote:Also, don't be too sure the government will be able to bring all of that military power to bear on it's own citizens. Remember, our military is 100% volunteer and, as a whole, are largely conservative. Also, approximately 1/3 of all active duty military are from Texas. If the order ever came down to use military might against their families, friends and neighbors, large portions of the military will not comply. Some will actively refuse, others will simply fade away. Guess which side they are likely to show up on?

A certain number will comply and do whatever they're told, but I think that is going to be a very low percentage.

:iagree:

And that mighty military depends hugely upon support and supply personnel, as well as an uninterrupted line of parts, fuel and ammo from bullets to bombs. All of those supplies have to be produced and functional by citizens who may or may not agree with the Feds overreach. Additionally a lot of America's roads and bridges simply won't support massive movements of tanks and other armored vehicles. Especially once the tanks are unloaded from their truck and train transports.

Finally there is the Special Forces personnel, active, veterans and retired, whose training is specifically to train, equip and lead indigenous people against a superior force.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:35 pm

parabelum wrote:
Noggin wrote:The only conclusion I can draw from this is that really ruthless hard line totalitarian regimes, are not too worried if their people get access to small arms.

This brings me to the core of my argument. Having citizens equipped with small arms would not be enough to prevent the takeover of the country, by a hostile government employing the full array of 21st century military resources


I think you've got some decent points, aside from the ones I bolded out above.

Not to get esoteric and long winded, but, I can assure you and everyone reading this post, that had it not been for small arms, primitive ww2 surplus rifles, rusted out ammo (which still functioned incidentally), I would not be sitting here typing this very text.

Up against latest mig aircraft, tanks, heavy artillery and latest machine and submachine guns, we in Sarajevo were able to keep the parasites from killing us all with none other but small arms. Very old, almost antique guns that saved hundreds of thousands from falling into the those death camps in Srebrenica.

That's just my experience, and precisely why I now own a small arms arsenal myself.

Just ask the Vietnamese. I raise this example specifically because it illustrates two points. The first is that, wherever our military in Vietnam had the chance to face off against large unit NVA or small unit Vietcong forces, our guys won. The second point is that the Vietcong and NVA committed to bleed us dry, and eventually WE lost the political will to continue the fight. While the NVA possessed some heavy weapons, the battles where we faced off against them, and against the Vietcong small units, were largely small arms battles. But because of loss of political will, we vacated that place. This has nothing to do with valor or capability. We have a civilian gov't that calls the shots, and as we all know, they like getting reelected. Roughly half of the nation does not back progressive policies. Roughly 1/3 of Americans are gun owners. How long could the gov't engage a resistance in small arms battles, killing hundreds or even thousands before ALL of those 110 million Americans put a stop to it, backed up by the votes of 165 million Americans?

Even during the Civil War, when Lincoln suspended some parts of the Constitution, elections were still held. I don't find it credible that someone like Obama or Clinton would go so far as to suspend elections, because they would HAVE to know what kind of offal storm they'd bring down on their own heads. Heck, liberals like voting so much, they even do it from the grave.....
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby KLB » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:02 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:I don't find it credible that someone like Obama or Clinton would go so far as to suspend elections, because they would HAVE to know what kind of offal storm they'd bring down on their own heads.


The American Left no more needs to suspend elections than did the Soviets. They can and are in the process of remaking the electorate and degrading the security of the voting system. Plus, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter who votes. It only matters who counts the votes.

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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:29 pm

KLB wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:I don't find it credible that someone like Obama or Clinton would go so far as to suspend elections, because they would HAVE to know what kind of offal storm they'd bring down on their own heads.

The American Left no more needs to suspend elections than did the Soviets. They can and are in the process of remaking the electorate and degrading the security of the voting system. Plus, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter who votes. It only matters who counts the votes.

Oh, I have no doubt that they would try to corrupt the process, to cheat to influence the outcome. As I pointed out, they like elections so much they even vote when they're dead. I just don't think they would go so far as to cancel elections, else they would be justly pointed out as frauds by the very grievance groups they claim are disenfranchised by things like eeeeevil voter ID. So cheat? Yeah. But cancel? I don't think so.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby XinTX » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:32 am

Also keep in mind the mantra that the operative word in "gun control" is "control". The Progressives (Progs, sometimes referred to as Statists) want control of the populace. As stated, in Nazi Germany the Nazi Party was actually a minority. But the majority agreed with what they were doing. But a significant portion of the 2A community might not. But their goal may not be this mass confiscation. Instead, it's a divide and conquer tactic. The pro-2A are against the antis. Just as they've turned the pro-life groups against the pro-abortion groups. The more we are divided against one another, the easier it is to gain more control. So long as we're fighting one another, we're not watching what they're doing. Once they have enough control, they'll pick out their boogey man. In Germany, it was the Jews who wouldn't go along. Next time, it will be the biggest thorn in the side of the Progs. Might once again be the Jews. Could be the 2A community. Could be the churches. Could be us old white guys.

Point being, the bigger issue is driving wedges between groups of people.
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Re: Pro Gun Supporters have got it Wrong

Postby Ruark » Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:35 am

Pawpaw wrote:Also, don't be too sure the government will be able to bring all of that military power to bear on it's own citizens. Remember, our military is 100% volunteer and, as a whole, are largely conservative. Also, approximately 1/3 of all active duty military are from Texas. If the order ever came down to use military might against their families, friends and neighbors, large portions of the military will not comply.


And don't forget the millions, if not tens of millions, of veterans out there, most of whom are certainly armed and would not meekly submit to any such attempt. I agree that the probability of this approach being used is very, very slim, virtually zero.
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