This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

There is seemingly no end to the extent to which anti-gun people and groups will lie about guns and gun owners. Post links to articles by these masters of prevarication here.

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This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby SQLGeek » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:52 am

Filed under the heading, With friends like these...courtesy of NPR.

"You would need more training than 50 percent of the sworn active law enforcement officers in this country ever get. "

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/11/ ... gun-owners

Evidently NPR found the one instructor and gun dealer they happen to agree with.

A tour through Mike "The Gun Guy's" Twitter page is quite enlightening as well. I'm not sure I've ever seen a gun dealer or instructor use the phrase "Gun sense" quite so much if at all.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Jago668 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:54 am

Considering that if you go to any training at all you get more training than 50% of the sworn law enforcement officers in the country receive.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Tex1961 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:17 am

Can't comment on LEO training, but a few weeks back was at the range. Guy next to me had a compact 9mm and I noticed his empty AIWB holster. We chatted for a few minutes after we had both been shooting in our respective lanes. He said that he was watching me shoot and was curious about why I was taking shots by first keeping my gun aimed towards the ground and then bringing up to the target and why I was also doing 2 shots at once.. I was very happy to explain to him the concept of low ready and double taps... He was obviously LTC but barely had any concept of basics. Just enough to fire his weapon. Hopefully after about 5 minutes of chatting I was able to show him a few techniques to train on. So yea.. I'm going to agree that many if not most don't even have anything past basic gun 101..
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Bitter Clinger » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:38 am

We all can benefit from formal training. This weekend I plan to attend a class on drawing from (under) concealment and shooting in low light to no light conditions. If you have never tried to draw while clearing your cover garment, or effectively deployed your handgun while also holding a flashlight, then believe me you will be surprised how difficult these simple actions can be under stress.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Tex1961 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:50 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:We all can benefit from formal training. This weekend I plan to attend a class on drawing from (under) concealment and shooting in low light to no light conditions. If you have never tried to draw while clearing your cover garment, or effectively deployed your handgun while also holding a flashlight, then believe me you will be surprised how difficult these simple actions can be under stress.


Is that the Frisco Gun Club class? If so and afterwards, can you post to let us know how it went?

I am working on signing up for this class. 8 hours and need 500 rounds.


https://www.eventbrite.com/e/combat-com ... 7712291479
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Bitter Clinger » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:32 am

Tex1961 wrote:
Bitter Clinger wrote:We all can benefit from formal training. This weekend I plan to attend a class on drawing from (under) concealment and shooting in low light to no light conditions. If you have never tried to draw while clearing your cover garment, or effectively deployed your handgun while also holding a flashlight, then believe me you will be surprised how difficult these simple actions can be under stress.


Is that the Frisco Gun Club class? If so and afterwards, can you post to let us know how it went?

I am working on signing up for this class. 8 hours and need 500 rounds.


https://www.eventbrite.com/e/combat-com ... 7712291479


Nope, Not a fan of indoor ranges in general and have some issues with the other one you listed. You can PM me and I will give you my cell if you want to chat.

If you want to get some good value for your training dollars in my judgement I can recommend these:

https://txconcealedcarry.com/event/shoo ... low-light/

https://txconcealedcarry.com/event/defensive-shotgun-1/
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:24 am

This guy must be a legend in his own mind, but it's an idiot to the real world. This line from his "About Me" section of his blog speaks volumes; "I have sold more than 40,000 guns and I know as much about guns and hunting as anyone." Really? Nothing indicates he has any advanced training, has served in the military or as a peace officer, or has any credentials whatsoever, other than being an NRA Instructor. Yet he knows as much about guns as anyone. Hello Walter Mitty.

First, he makes a grossly inaccurate assumption that someone in the 50-person congregation at Southerland Springs had a gun and simply didn't try to shoot. Garbage! If that were true, then it would have come out by now. Also, with slightly over 4% of the population having an LTC, the chance that any of the 50 people (which includes several kids) had a License and a gun is almost non-existent. Those that do have a License could well have believed that their church was in no danger and didn't carry to church.

As to not being able to respond because they were not trained, again . . . GARBAGE!!! Look how many times we see homeowners shooting burglars, many of whom are under fire when they do so. Some of them have effectively returned fire even after being wounded. Most of these people don't have a License, so in all likelihood, they have no training whatsoever. In just the last year, there have been three or four untrained women well into their 60's who have successfully defended themselves against armed intruders.

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Jago668 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:52 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:First, he makes a grossly inaccurate assumption that someone in the 50-person congregation at Southerland Springs had a gun and simply didn't try to shoot. Garbage! If that were true, then it would have come out by now. Also, with slightly over 4% of the population having an LTC, the chance that any of the 50 people (which includes several kids) had a License and a gun is almost non-existent. Those that do have a License could well have believed that their church was in no danger and didn't carry to church.


Not that it really means anything, but out of the 6 people (including myself) that I personally know that have a LTC. I am the only one that carries all the time. I know most of us on here do. However we really aren't the norm for conceal carry I don't think. So even if there had been someone (or even a few) with an LTC there is no guarantee that there would have been a pistol present to shoot back with.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby ninjabread » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:00 pm

I don't know what Mr. Fudd was trying to say, but what I heard is the bad guy probably isn't trained to respond to a target who fires back.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Beiruty » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:05 pm

A simple question to ask that NRA instructor, how many gun-battles strips you have on your chest?
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby SQLGeek » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:29 pm

I held my nose and perused his blog. In addition to being an NRA Endowment member while referring to the NRA as the enemy, he seems to hold an incredible amount of contempt for his gun owning customers and gun owners in general.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Pawpaw » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:00 pm

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:08 pm

Jago668 wrote:Considering that if you go to any training at all you get more training than 50% of the sworn law enforcement officers in the country receive.

I’m pretty sure it was Col Jeff Cooper who said “owning a guitar does not make you a musician”. Of course, he’s right, and (although I actually AM a musician) I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t have nearly enough training to make me into some kind of tactical killing machine. But I also got into this game later in life, I have physical infirmities, and there’s a limit to what I actually can do. The problem with the argument being made by both NPR and this gunstore quisling is two-fold: (1) it assumes that the exercise of a RIGHT should be limited to those with “proper training” (and who gets to decide what ‘proper’ means, anyway?); and (2) it completely ignores the concept of effectiveness. You can be all kinds of trained, but if you can’t apply your training effectively, your “value” as a gunfighter is devalued to the level of someone else who has less training, but uses it more effectively.

My example of “trained but ineffective”, since the OP’s linked article is obviously a response to the recent church shooting...... The gentleman who responded with his AR15 - who IS a hero, so I’m not trying to knock him down here - is described as a former NRA instructor, although instructor of what hasn’t been specified in the Democrat Steno Pool (AKA “the media”), because they are largely ignorant to the fact that the NRA trains many different kinds of instructors. This is important, because he may be a perfectly competent Basic Pistol instructor, but that doesn’t mean that he’s a qualified rifle instructor. And he made a critical error prior to grabbing his AR15 and responding to the ongoing shooting, and that was to NOT have any already charged magazines on hand for his AR. It is absolutely possible to keep charged mags on hand, without violating any gun safety rules. Example, I have an AR in the safe. On top of the safe is an ammo box (too difficult for a child to open, and too high for a child to reach), and that ammo box has 15 fully charged 30 round mags. But both the AR and charged magazines are quickly available to me without violating any safety rules. Now, the man who grabbed his AR and ran toward the sound of the guns had no charged magazines on hand. Instead, he grabbed “a handful” (as he described it) of loose rounds, and with the rifle tucked under his arm, he began charging the magazine on the run as he ran toward the church. He also admitted that when he got there, he had no idea how many rounds he had in the magazine. I wonder how many he dropped on the ground as he ran. But almost nobody can hold 30 5.56 rounds in one hand, let alone stuff them into a magazine while running, with a 7 lb rifle tucked under an arm. It is a safe bet that he probably had fewer than 10 rounds in the mag by the time he got there - the church being just down the block. And he was facing a determined homicidal maniac who had more than one gun, and who had charged mags for those guns.

THAT is ineffective application of training. Again, please understand that I consider him a hero, and I only pray - heavean forbid I should ever find myself in the same predicament - that I would face it with the same courage that he did. BUT..... NOT having at least one fully charged magazine available to him when he grabbed his AR was a huge mistake, and he is darn lucky that he was able to connect with the rounds he DID have on arrival. In fact, considering the circumstances, my personal opinion is that God made sure he succeeded. An AR15 without an available loaded magazine is as useless as any unloaded pistol without a charged magazine on hand. And that was a significant mistake made by a trained shooter, which reduced the effectiveness of his training.

I think that equally important to the actual training, is gaming out scenarios in your head, taking into account a realistic appraisal of your own capabilities and/or limitations. I have a common practice of quizzing myself periodically, and I do it under many kinds of conditions - while driving, while in church, while at the supermarket, while relaxing at home, whatever; and I ask myself “what would I do IF....”

My wife and I recently moved into (for us) an enormous house with our son and his family, and we all live together now - 3 generations - so our home-defense dynamics have changed. My son is also tactically minded and a trained shooter too, so that adds some complexities, but also some capabilities. We both went from living in 1-story homes to living together in a 2-story home. Children both sleep upstairs in separate rooms, and adults all sleep downstairs in separate master suites. Our new home’s security system including several external cameras which have a warning capability, so we get audible and visual warnings on our phones almost as soon as someone steps onto the property. My son is big and strong like ox, and I’m finding myself increasingly less able and more arthritic as I age, so there’s things he can do that I cannot, etc., etc., etc. I say all this because it affects our home-defense decision making. And because it’s all new, it provides a great opportunity for all of my family to reassess how to cover the bases.

None of this is an excuse to not get some training, but simply some commentary to point out that training won’t count if it isn’t applied effectively, and that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to get trained into some kind of next-level ninja.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:29 pm

I would add this....... gunstore owner or not, if I were approached by a member of the Democrat Steno Pool (AKA “the media”) and asked if he/she could ask me some questions, my first response would be “what about?” If the subject was guns, my second response would be “you’re the enemy. I don’t talk to the enemy about guns. You’ll take my words and twist and edit them to mean whatever you want them to mean in the context of your narrative, and whatever comes out the other end of your sausage maker won’t be anything resembling either the truth, OR what I said. So get lost.”

And purely as a business caution, I would tell any gunstore owner to simply not talk to the media. “If you want to buy a gun, I’ll sell you a gun. Otherwise, get out of my store.” The reason being that it won’t matter if you speak truthfully about guns, the reporters will twist whatever you say to mean whatever they want it to mean, and it won’t come out sounding ANYthing like what you actually said. It will end up sounding like the moron quoted at the top of this thread. And THAT will negatively impact your business, because your most loyal customers - the ones who actually spend the most amount of money in your store ON GUNS - will take their business elsewhere, giving their dollars to someone whose words won’t be used to attack the free exercise of the 2nd Amendment.
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Re: This Gun Instructor Says Many Who Carry A Gun Aren't Trained To Respond To A Shooter

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:33 pm

In addition to my earlier post, here is a link to an article talking about two churches where armed citizens were able to stop a would-be mass murderer. BTW, I guess Sir Walter Mitty feels that over 50% of the LEOs in this country would not draw their weapon and engage a church shooter, because they have insufficient training. Me thinks he's full of . . . wait, I can't say that, can I?

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