Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

Personal practice/training stories, tips and questions. This is not a place for advertising courses or classes.

Moderator: carlson1

User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 3608
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#1

Post by Paladin »



This is also called the 5x5 drill (download a target here). Good for beginner and intermediate shooters.

For advanced shooters I'd half the time or double the round count
JOIN NRA TODAY!
NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life Member, VCDL Member
NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
Paladin Training Systems

“Those who expect to be both ignorant and free, expect what never was and never will be.” -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Grayling813
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:18 am

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#2

Post by Grayling813 »

3x5 index card instead of the plate
"If safety requires us to indefinitely forfeit the most valuable parts of our lives, what exactly are we trying to save?"
~ A.J. Kay
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 3608
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#3

Post by Paladin »

Grayling813 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:55 pm 3x5 index card instead of the plate
To simulate a T-box?
JOIN NRA TODAY!
NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life Member, VCDL Member
NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
Paladin Training Systems

“Those who expect to be both ignorant and free, expect what never was and never will be.” -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 9933
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#4

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

I have done this drill before. Some ranges in my area require 2 seconds in between each shot, making it hard to do. But I have found this drill very useful.
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 3608
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#5

Post by Paladin »

03Lightningrocks wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:51 pm I have done this drill before. Some ranges in my area require 2 seconds in between each shot, making it hard to do. But I have found this drill very useful.
Me too! Its a good mix of speed and accuracy. I use LuckyGunner's printable targets and they work great. This is one of Karl Rehn's favored drills as well.

The drill is doable at home with an airsoft pistol.

Honestly I think shooting the drill 100% five times in a row is a little OCD. If you start to get all your shots off correctly in the proper time, I would rather add a physical stressor like a 25 yard sprint before shooting. Saves ammo and adds exercise and realism.
JOIN NRA TODAY!
NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life Member, VCDL Member
NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
Paladin Training Systems

“Those who expect to be both ignorant and free, expect what never was and never will be.” -Thomas Jefferson

Greybeard
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 2359
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:57 pm
Location: Denton County
Contact:

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#6

Post by Greybeard »

Quote: "Some ranges in my area require 2 seconds in between each shot."

Our range preference is "2 shots on target inside of 2 seconds" - preferably from the holster.
CHL Instructor since 1995
http://www.dentoncountysports.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; "A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency"
24/7 Independent Practice Plans for local LEOs and Texas CHL holders
User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 9933
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#7

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Greybeard wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:58 pm Quote: "Some ranges in my area require 2 seconds in between each shot."

Our range preference is "2 shots on target inside of 2 seconds" - preferably from the holster.
:fire
User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 26012
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#8

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Paladin wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:00 pm
Grayling813 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:55 pm 3x5 index card instead of the plate
To simulate a T-box?
Aim small, miss small.
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings. BTW, have you noticed that the topographical contours of local lake bottoms seem to have changed and become more rich in aluminum alloys and polymers in the last 10 years?
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 3608
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#9

Post by Paladin »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:40 am
Paladin wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:00 pm
Grayling813 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:55 pm 3x5 index card instead of the plate
To simulate a T-box?
Aim small, miss small.
That's why Lucky Gunner puts a dot in the middle of their 5 inch dot! ;-)

There could be a fair argument than unless you are trying to get a CNS hit, a 5 inch circle is too small. Unless your goal is a CNS hit, 6-or-8 inches is the real world standard. Being able to hit a smaller target is gets you bragging rights and allows you to handle a wider range of situations... I'm all for accuracy...but if your goal is a realistic mix of speed and accuracy at LIKELY distances (aka 3-to-7 yards)... its best to stay focused on the objective.

Its a weakness I see in "practical shooting" competitions... Hitting the IDPA 8 inch zero down at 3 yards is easy... so they take distances out to 20 yards for a challenge... when participants would be better served spending their most of their time shooting at 7 yards or less... because that's where most of the actual defense shootings take place.
JOIN NRA TODAY!
NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life Member, VCDL Member
NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
Paladin Training Systems

“Those who expect to be both ignorant and free, expect what never was and never will be.” -Thomas Jefferson

Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 4061
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#10

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

Paladin wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:58 am <Snip>
Its a weakness I see in "practical shooting" competitions... Hitting the IDPA 8 inch zero down at 3 yards is easy... so they take distances out to 20 yards for a challenge... when participants would be better served spending their most of their time shooting at 7 yards or less... because that's where most of the actual defense shootings take place.
:iagree:

I think of it like this. If I'm shooting someone who is more than 7 yards from me, there are probably better options (than shooting) to end the encounter. So I generally would not expect a need to shoot someone who is farther away.
Ding dong, the witch is dead
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 3608
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#11

Post by Paladin »

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:12 am
Paladin wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:58 am <Snip>
Its a weakness I see in "practical shooting" competitions... Hitting the IDPA 8 inch zero down at 3 yards is easy... so they take distances out to 20 yards for a challenge... when participants would be better served spending their most of their time shooting at 7 yards or less... because that's where most of the actual defense shootings take place.
:iagree:

I think of it like this. If I'm shooting someone who is more than 7 yards from me, there are probably better options (than shooting) to end the encounter. So I generally would not expect a need to shoot someone who is farther away.
:cheers2:

Like Sun Tzu wrote over 2,000 years ago, winning without fighting is the first choice.
JOIN NRA TODAY!
NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life Member, VCDL Member
NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
Paladin Training Systems

“Those who expect to be both ignorant and free, expect what never was and never will be.” -Thomas Jefferson

flechero
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 3272
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
Location: Central Texas

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#12

Post by flechero »

Paladin wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:58 am There could be a fair argument than unless you are trying to get a CNS hit, a 5 inch circle is too small. Unless your goal is a CNS hit, 6-or-8 inches is the real world standard...
I understand your point... and agree with not moving to 20 yds for challenge, but rather keeping targets smaller/realistic. But when you add real world adrenaline & stress into it and 5" is still probably too large. Real world standards often include doing the drill while taking incoming rounds. :shock:
User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 26012
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#13

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:12 am I think of it like this. If I'm shooting someone who is more than 7 yards from me, there are probably better options (than shooting) to end the encounter. So I generally would not expect a need to shoot someone who is farther away.
Double the yardage, and it is still too close for grenades. :mrgreen:

This is why a shotgun probably makes a better HD gun than a pistol. :smilelol5:

All kidding aside, this is why I’d be content just to get any kind of COM hits on a mobile target. If 2 or 3 aren’t enough, then rinse and repeat.

I have little or no experience in personal defense oriented shooting competitions, but it seems to me that the TWO things they don’t seem to account for are (1) your target is most likely mobile, and (2) he may be shooting at you....which places a whole new spin on things.

In fact, I was watching a James Yeager video the other day in which he and John Lovell discussed the "50 Reasons Why John Lovell is Wrong" (https://youtu.be/7Yu4lspZszA). It was actually all in good fun, and informative (IRL, they’re pretty good friends). But one of the things they discussed was the difference in their philosophies about whether or not one ought to be shooting while running for cover. Both had good answers, and the takeaway for me was that there is no one good answer.

Like I said, all I know about shooting competition stages is what I’ve seen on YouTube videos, and that’s not very much. But from what little I can deduce, none of them prepare you for actually shooting a moving target while on the move yourself. I do believe that the training you get from competition is better than not training at all.

On the other hand, I saw Dan Crenshaw say something when being interviewed by Joe Rogan. Speaking about BUD/S and the value of Hell Week, he said a couple of interesting things. First, he said that BUD/S and Hell Week don’t make SEALs. He said that the person who graduates from SEAL training and earns his Trident was already "that guy" before he ever joined the Navy. Guys who join the Navy to prove to themselves that they are "that guy", are exactly the guys who washout and who aren’t "that guy". I guess his point is that special operators (regardless of branch) aren’t made, they’re born. The training just helps them to maximize who they already are. In the civilian world, what if "who we are" just isn’t very much to begin with?

The second thing that Crenshaw said, which I think applies more to this discussion than the other point, is that SEAL training was so hard, and they suffered in training so much, that when they got to combat, it just wasn’t that bad. SEAL trainees get injured, sometimes badly, and sometimes they die in training. So when a SEAL gets hurt or killed in combat, the survivors are better equipped psychologically to deal with it and remain combat effective. I assume that the same kind of principle applies to other special operators from other branches. In any case, there’s no scenario I can imagine where civilian training is so harsh and brutal that the graduates are “combat immunized” so to speak.

Pastor Joe Fox alway says, "do the best you can, with what you’ve got, where you’re at." As a crippled old man who doesn’t move very well anymore, the best I can do is aim small and hope he’s not returning fire. I do wish I’d gotten into this when I was a lot younger.
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings. BTW, have you noticed that the topographical contours of local lake bottoms seem to have changed and become more rich in aluminum alloys and polymers in the last 10 years?
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 3608
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#14

Post by Paladin »

flechero wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:39 am
Paladin wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:58 am There could be a fair argument than unless you are trying to get a CNS hit, a 5 inch circle is too small. Unless your goal is a CNS hit, 6-or-8 inches is the real world standard...
I understand your point... and agree with not moving to 20 yds for challenge, but rather keeping targets smaller/realistic. But when you add real world adrenaline & stress into it and 5" is still probably too large. Real world standards often include doing the drill while taking incoming rounds. :shock:
Adding physical stressors helps simulate stress... which is important for drills... but if you want to do full on training for the real world, you've got to do force-on-force training.

Good force-on-force training has both drills and live scenarios.

Its kind of like the steps of learning boxing. First you learn to punch the air(1), next you learn to punch a bag(2), then you learn to spar with a partner(3), after that you are ready for a live opponent that hits back(4).

Dryfire or airsoft shooting this drill is like step #1. Live fire of this drill step #2 on the progression. Its not so much changing the target size as mastering viable techniques in a logical order that gets you ready for step #4.
JOIN NRA TODAY!
NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life Member, VCDL Member
NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
Paladin Training Systems

“Those who expect to be both ignorant and free, expect what never was and never will be.” -Thomas Jefferson

flechero
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 3272
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
Location: Central Texas

Re: Five Rounds, Five Seconds, Five Yards, Five Inches

#15

Post by flechero »

I do agree. My point (probably poor stated) was that training standards will not hold under stress so if you train to a higher standard, your chances are better of maintaining that real world standard under stress... whereas mastering a full size target in training will likely translate into something larger under stress. :tiphat:
Post Reply

Return to “Training & Practice”