Lewisville??

Most CHL/LEO contacts are positive, how about yours? Bloopers are fun, but no names please, if it will cause a LEO problems!

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chasfm11
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby chasfm11 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:35 am

texanjoker wrote:I'm glad to hear they trained the security. I'll assume many chl's went in w/o incident. Glad to see this.


Perhaps but I'm not sure how they would have done any better that I did. I don't know what might have happened if I had volunteered the information that I have a CHL to the lead security guy. I was concerned about him trying to give me verbal notice, even though it is doubtful that he could make that stick. The last thing that I wanted was a he said/she said discussion about whether CHL could be banned.

In hindsight, I should have asked the Lewisville officer what the secret handshake might be to avoid a public announcement of my CHL or any possible public discussion. As long as they are intent on wanding everyone, there is no way that every CHL is not going to set off the wand's alarm. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

I know that there are alot of guys from this area and one of the things that I hoping for is that someone else might have attended this event and could share their experience. Judging by the very small size of the crowd (due to the rainy weather), it is possible that I was the only CHL that the security team dealt with all day.
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texanjoker
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby texanjoker » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:43 am

chasfm11 wrote:
texanjoker wrote:I'm glad to hear they trained the security. I'll assume many chl's went in w/o incident. Glad to see this.


Perhaps but I'm not sure how they would have done any better that I did. I don't know what might have happened if I had volunteered the information that I have a CHL to the lead security guy. I was concerned about him trying to give me verbal notice, even though it is doubtful that he could make that stick. The last thing that I wanted was a he said/she said discussion about whether CHL could be banned.

In hindsight, I should have asked the Lewisville officer what the secret handshake might be to avoid a public announcement of my CHL or any possible public discussion. As long as they are intent on wanding everyone, there is no way that every CHL is not going to set off the wand's alarm. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

I know that there are alot of guys from this area and one of the things that I hoping for is that someone else might have attended this event and could share their experience. Judging by the very small size of the crowd (due to the rainy weather), it is possible that I was the only CHL that the security team dealt with all day.


Personally when faced with those type of situations I quietly let the person know I am armed while showing the ID authorizing me to carry CHL or LEO id depending where I am. The CHL helps with the being "outed" as a leo. It worked out but it could have gone south with your method because when a person refuses to be screened it raises a red flag and can excite an over zealous security guard. It didn't so that is good.


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Re: Lewisville??

Postby chasfm11 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:27 pm

texanjoker wrote:Personally when faced with those type of situations I quietly let the person know I am armed while showing the ID authorizing me to carry CHL or LEO id depending where I am. The CHL helps with the being "outed" as a leo. It worked out but it could have gone south with your method because when a person refuses to be screened it raises a red flag and can excite an over zealous security guard. It didn't so that is good.


I appreciate the advice. I did consider that approach. I appear old enough that there could be some medical reason for me not wanting to be wanded and I was counting on that not to escalate the matter too quickly. None of the security firm was armed so I wasn't worried about my personal safety with them. As I indicated in my OP, I was glad when the Lewisville officers approached and I took a very calm manner in responding to them.

One of the things that I worry about in any disclosure that I'm armed is that it sends someone into tunnel vision. Sometimes people hear the word "armed" they seem not to hear a word afterward. I was trying at all costs to avoid the security guard getting on the radio with a code word for MWAG. I'm sure that he has one and I didn't want to risk a confrontation with the local police, guns drawn.

I have great respect for the knowledge of LEOs about Texas laws. The security firm, on the other hand, might have been from out of state or even a bunch of cop wanna-bes. My plan was to ask for an LEO if a supervisor had shown up and that conversation hadn't gone well.

Having read about the incidents at the State Fair, I figured my best path was to deal with the LEOs, not security. The Lewisville Police station is a reasonable drive from my house and I may stop down there this week and ask the WWYD question.

One last point. The security group was making a fetish out of pocket knives. I seriously doubt that there are many men in the Lewisville area who don't have at least one of them on them. For me, that was a flag that the security team had reached the zealot level. Even TSA was considering lifting the ban on some of those. This was just another piece of information that was feeding my OODA loop at that moment.

Ideally, there should have been a provision to make it easy for CHLs to get into the event when the security screening was as tight as it was. Training the security team that they could not prevent CHL entry is, to me, not the same thing as facilitating that entry. When no facilitated path was available, any choice that I made could have turned out badly. To me, that flies in the face of what security is supposed to be about. They are there to assess threats and put measures in place to deal with them. How they could miss the threat associated with trying to wand a CHL escapes me. Maybe I'm just not bright enough to understand the situation.
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby rotor » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:46 pm

For the legal people, is it legal to prevent people from carrying a legal pocket knife into a city event? I am legally able to carry a pocket knife into a school aren't I? I know when I go onto a military base I can't take my pocket knife but to a fair grounds?


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Re: Lewisville??

Postby gringo pistolero » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:49 pm

rotor wrote:For the legal people, is it legal to prevent people from carrying a legal pocket knife into a city event? I am legally able to carry a pocket knife into a school aren't I? I know when I go onto a military base I can't take my pocket knife but to a fair grounds?

There's no preemption law preventing cities or counties from prohibiting pocket knives or drink coolers.
I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended by suggesting the Second Amendment also applies to The People who don't work for the government.

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Re: Lewisville??

Postby C-dub » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:09 pm

I carry my pocket knife into schools all the time. I slip it into a front pocket, but if has a clip that is clearly visible unless the shirt I happen to be wearing that day is long enough to cover it.

Lewisville is no Detroit or Chicago, but I do not decide whether or not I'm going to carry based on where I'm going. That decision is solely based on whether or not I can carry where I'm going and even then, more often than not, I will still carry and just leave it in the vehicle. It is an extremely rare occasion that I will leave the house without being armed.
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby chasfm11 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:20 pm

C-dub wrote:I carry my pocket knife into schools all the time. I slip it into a front pocket, but if has a clip that is clearly visible unless the shirt I happen to be wearing that day is long enough to cover it.

Lewisville is no Detroit or Chicago, but I do not decide whether or not I'm going to carry based on where I'm going. That decision is solely based on whether or not I can carry where I'm going and even then, more often than not, I will still carry and just leave it in the vehicle. It is an extremely rare occasion that I will leave the house without being armed.


:iagree: I have my pocket knife with me at all times, too. Banning them for a town fair seems extreme.

The only time that I don't take your same approach for my EDC is when the parking lot might be a problem, too. Though I now avoid them like the plague, I'm still a sailor and there are times when I have to got to COE locations. It irritates me every time. Under any other circumstances, I will "gang up" stops on a trip. If I'm disarmed because I have to go to a COE marina or the bricks and mortar Post Office, I change it to a direct trip there and back.
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby chasfm11 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:28 am

texanjoker wrote:Personally when faced with those type of situations I quietly let the person know I am armed while showing the ID authorizing me to carry CHL or LEO id depending where I am. The CHL helps with the being "outed" as a leo. It worked out but it could have gone south with your method because when a person refuses to be screened it raises a red flag and can excite an over zealous security guard. It didn't so that is good.


I've thought about this more. I have a question.

There are only two ways that I can be prevented from carrying other than a prohibited location: a sign and verbal notice. They didn't have a sign but I had disclosed my CHL to security and they told me "you cannot carry that here", doesn't that constitute verbal notice? I completely understand that local municipalities should not be able to do that but since both Grapevine and Irving put up 30.06 signs, it is clear that some of them try.

If my schedule permits today, I'm going to drive over the the Lewisville PD and see what they have to say. I suspect that this is not the last time that Lewisville will have a city event that I might want to attend.
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby cb1000rider » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:58 pm

Charlie,
Bravo...


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Re: Lewisville??

Postby chasfm11 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:54 pm

Update:

I had a conversation with a Lt. from the patrol division of the Lewisville PD this afternoon. I'm very glad that I went and spoke with him.

The correct procedure was for me to have shown my CHL ID to the security and they were supposed to have by passed the wanding. However, one of the off duty Lewisville officers tried to follow that procedure and the security people "freaked out" (the Lt.'s words) when the told them he was armed and wanted to bypass the wanding. So I was one of two incidents that day.

The Lt. was not aware that security was forbidding pocket knives. His response to my telling him was "that's nuts." I was supportive of his statements that the idea was to keep out unlicensed guns and weapons. We talked a little about things going too far.

I explained my specific concerns (not wanting to generate either a MWAG call or be given verbal warning not to carry.) He said that he understood them and my reasons for approaching things the way that I did. He was very supportive of CHL and we had a great conversation about a number of related topics. I told that I was very pleased with the way his officers handled the situation.

I'm more convinced now that getting the LEOs involved was the correct approach for me this time but I will try to follow the CHL display procedure in the future.

One of the things the other things that he said was worth repeating. His greatest concern with CHLs is that they might get involved in a situation that they don't understand. He said that he and other officers recognize that CHLs are the kinds of people that he would want to have around if things ever went south for them. But he worries about a plain clothes officer getting into it with a BG and a CHL trying to intervene on the wrong side of the dispute. I assured him that the forum of CHLs that I belong to discussed that frequently, especially as related to DV calls. When I told him that our daughter had been a dispatcher for 7 years, I know that he accepted my understanding of those third party situations.

There was a lot more to our conversation that I don't want to put online. We can talk more at a DFW get together.
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby lonewolf » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:21 pm

Interesting post. I'm still not sure about the legality of Grapevine posting the Grapefest......After all, its a public street, isn't it?

I admit that I have a much more difficult time keeping my pocket knife in my pocket than my gun in my holster. We know how much these inanimate objects like to just jump out and start waving themselves around, much to the chagrin of others..... :shock: (Meant as sarcasm, of course. :coolgleamA: )

I remember visiting my Grandmother in Lewisville many times. Back when 121 was a two lane road all the way through.... Lots of open land. Not so much anymore, but I would guess that their crime rates aren't so different than any other local municipality that I would avoid it altogether if possible. I would be just as observant and wary as I would be anywhere else.

Great response from the LEO's and great interaction with the Lieutenant!


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Re: Lewisville??

Postby cb1000rider » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:44 pm

lonewolf wrote:Interesting post. I'm still not sure about the legality of Grapevine posting the Grapefest......After all, its a public street, isn't it?


The problem is that there is nothing illegal about posting an sign that isn't legally enforceable.
Kudos to Lewisville for having their stuff together. They set an example for everyone (in the above case, not GrapeFest necessarily).


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Re: Lewisville??

Postby EEllis » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:14 am

Years ago I used to work event security. Mainly concerts and such but also festivals and fairs. The festival is almost never a "City" event. They have some group that fronts for it that has no direct connection to the City and they then usually hire a promoter that goes around running festivals all year round. So while it may be on public property it is privately run and managed by a third party. The city makes money on taxes, rent, overtime for cops that they charge the festival but I have yet to see one that any City is directly in charge of. The promoters will work all over the country and may not no or care about the specifics of CHL law and if they think signs might make it even a little easier then they will post them regardless. As to the knife issue. While you carry a knife as a tool there are many who carry knives as weapons and will use them even quicker than a gun. In some ways it's easier to use a knife in a crowd and you are more likely to get away with doing so. You can't just take knives from hoodrats and bangers. You have to take every knife from everybody. Think about how everyone can get packed in at some of these events and how easy it would be to just "Poke" someone as you walk by and casually stroll away. Rival groups clashing is always a danger and removing knives from the situation can be a helpful thing. People make fun of TSA for searching Grandma and People in chairs and such but when people are trying to get something thru they will get pretty creative and prey on a person who gives anyone any consideration. Diaper bags and strollers used to be a favorite stashing place god only knows what they do now.


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Re: Lewisville??

Postby chasfm11 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:15 am

cb1000rider wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Interesting post. I'm still not sure about the legality of Grapevine posting the Grapefest......After all, its a public street, isn't it?


The problem is that there is nothing illegal about posting an sign that isn't legally enforceable.
Kudos to Lewisville for having their stuff together. They set an example for everyone (in the above case, not GrapeFest necessarily).


:iagree: Even though there was an outside firm involved in the event, the Lewisville PD had considered the situation and believed that it IS a city sponsored event and that the city could not prevent CC. I remain concerned that one of the enterprising security guys might try to issue a verbal prohibition if a CHL discloses but it is also clear that the PD is not going to back them up.
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Re: Lewisville??

Postby texanjoker » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:24 am

chasfm11 wrote:Update:

I had a conversation with a Lt. from the patrol division of the Lewisville PD this afternoon. I'm very glad that I went and spoke with him.

The correct procedure was for me to have shown my CHL ID to the security and they were supposed to have by passed the wanding. However, one of the off duty Lewisville officers tried to follow that procedure and the security people "freaked out" (the Lt.'s words) when the told them he was armed and wanted to bypass the wanding. So I was one of two incidents that day.

The Lt. was not aware that security was forbidding pocket knives. His response to my telling him was "that's nuts." I was supportive of his statements that the idea was to keep out unlicensed guns and weapons. We talked a little about things going too far.

I explained my specific concerns (not wanting to generate either a MWAG call or be given verbal warning not to carry.) He said that he understood them and my reasons for approaching things the way that I did. He was very supportive of CHL and we had a great conversation about a number of related topics. I told that I was very pleased with the way his officers handled the situation.

I'm more convinced now that getting the LEOs involved was the correct approach for me this time but I will try to follow the CHL display procedure in the future.

One of the things the other things that he said was worth repeating. His greatest concern with CHLs is that they might get involved in a situation that they don't understand. He said that he and other officers recognize that CHLs are the kinds of people that he would want to have around if things ever went south for them. But he worries about a plain clothes officer getting into it with a BG and a CHL trying to intervene on the wrong side of the dispute. I assured him that the forum of CHLs that I belong to discussed that frequently, especially as related to DV calls. When I told him that our daughter had been a dispatcher for 7 years, I know that he accepted my understanding of those third party situations.

There was a lot more to our conversation that I don't want to put online. We can talk more at a DFW get together.


Yup what I said.....see most are on the same page. I agree with the last paragraph as well.


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