Accident With Off Duty Officer

[jamminbutter]

Sorry for the slightly long post...

Earlier today I was involved in an MVA with come to find out after all is said and done a police officer for one of the local ISDs. I was changing lanes due a lane closure and failed to see the other vehicle. So, yes my fault for the accident but then the fun began...

This issue started immediately after the accident when he drove up beside me waving what appeared to be a badge. We got to a red light and he placed his personal vehicle in park and got out flashing the badge in his left hand and his right hand on the handgun in a ready to draw position. In the same instance he was yelling at me how I ran him off the road and calling me names, etc... I had rolled down my window to hear what he was saying and placed my hands on the steering wheel...For the safety factor I stated let's move to a safe place and work this out. His reply was that we would work this out one way or another even if I have to arrest you.

He never got close enough for me to determine if the badge was real or which department he may work for. He had also not verbally identified himself as an officer or the department he works for.

We made our way to a safer location and he immediately exited his vehicle and commanded me to exit my vehicle. Due to his previous behavior and continuing failure to identify himself I immediately called 911 and requested that a local officer be dispatched. I remained in my vehicle as I did not deem it be 100% safe to exit. The reason being that if he was not a real officer then that would not be a good situation or if he were a real officer then what would happen when I exited and my my weapon was partly exposed as I had to lift my shirt it to get to my wallet.

When the local PD arrived I provided CHL, DL and INS info and notified the officer where my weapon was located. He said "Ok, thank you telling me and I will be right back with you".

There were no issues prior to the accident so I am not sure why he presented himself the way he did.

So my questions to pose are: Even though I could not truly identify him as a police officer should I have immediately shown my CHL? Would anyone have actually exited their vehicle as ordered once at the safe location? I did not do so due to the identification issue and I thought it might escalate the situation as previously he was yelling and acting in a menacing manner.

I will most likely be filing a complaint with the ISD police chief for the issues encountered.

[EEllis]

In my opinion you did the right thing. He was not acting as a police officer he was a citizen who just happens to be an officer. Now I will say that I'm a bit more lenient when dealing with cops out in the country because sometimes there may not be another cop readily available but an ISD cop? Personally if it went down like you say I would be making some calls to his dept about his actions.

[PBR]

Did you actually make contact with him or just forced him off the road some? If you made contact he might of thought you were trying to get away, as that would be only reason for him to act the way he did to me. Other than that if you forced him off the road or something similar then you would of had no idea something happened, thus not knowing exactly what to do. I think you did the best thing by staying in your car till a known officer arrived and I wouldn't of handed him anything myself. Honestly I would probably contact his department and let them know how he acted? I had a similar issue probably 25 years back (well not really similar to your issue on accident but officers not identifying themselves), I was at a local eating place after leaving a club and had some issues with a guy for some time. Well his mother was in there and asked me not to hurt her boy and so on. I end up going to bathroom and as soon as I walk out I get thrown up against the wall, without knowing what was going on I started fighting back. After a couple minutes of rolling around one guy starts saying I'm a police officer so I stop. Turns out it was two off duty officers that had been out partying also and she knew them and told them I had a gun. They started threatening me with going to jail for assaulting officers and so on. I told them fine get me an officer there and a supervisor, cause they never identified themselves as officers and as far as I knew I was getting robbed or jumped. After about 30 mins or so of arguing back and fourth they turned on her jumping into her for lying to them about a gun. In the end we just agreed to let everything go and drop it, I'm guessing since they ended up on the bad end of the stick so to say they didn't want everyone knowing one guy beat them up. Same moral of the story to me as to your situation. He never identified himself really and having his hand on his gun ready to draw is a threatening gesture. Did he happen to be in uniform? Sounds like to me he just had some road rage going on, I understand getting mad cause you got cut off and so on but unless you made contact he had no reasoning acting that way.

[jamminbutter]

There is damage to both vehicles. The location of the contact and where he got out is between 50 and 100ft, and we were behind several cars at a red light. He could have rolled down his window and said let's pull off somewhere, etc...

[The Annoyed Man]

3 words: Dashcam, and/or cellphone video.

I understand that you admit you were at fault, but when the other person starts acting the crazy fool, ESPECIALLY when he represents himself as being an LEO, get it on camera. Accidents can happen despite our best efforts and intentions. As long as both parties agree to be mature about it, there is no reason for one or the other to start acting inappropriately. If someone does act inappropriately and is claiming to be a cop......get it on camera. I am more than sure that his department supervisors would be wanting to see it. Waving your badge around and acting crazy isn't going to be regarded any better off-duty than on-duty. Remember, that same video is ALSO recording you speaking in a calm voice and remaining passive/non-confrontational until dispatched police arrive on the scene.

[jamminbutter]

Unfortunately I did not think to video the interaction. It may not have been safe to do so when in the middle of the street.

[carlson1]

You did good. Anything more might have escalated the incident

[jmra]

I think you did good. Might also try to put yourself in the other guys shoes. You may not have realized it at the time, but based on your post, you hit him, ran him off the road, and continued driving. It may never have occurred to him at the time that there was anyway you didn't realize there had been an accident. His thought process may have been this guy just hit me and isn't stopping.
I could imagine a lot of emotions going through someone at that point in time. If you didn't hear/feel the accident that left damage to both vehicles perhaps the environment was such that you didn't hear him identify himself as LEO. I think I would look at how south this thing could have gone and didn't when perhaps your actions were being deemed those of someone who didn't intend to stop.
All I'm saying is that there are two sides here that obviously saw things from two very different perspectives.

[RoyGBiv]

There were no issues prior to the accident so I am not sure why he presented himself the way he did.

Because he was raging. Acting like the North end of a southbound mule.

Good job calling 911 and deescalating.

[ShootDontTalk]

I couldn't find it if you said he was in a personal vehicle or a marked police car?

It has become a fad in certain areas for idiots to impersonate a police officer. Flashing lights, badge, attitude etc. I am aware of at least two cases in the last month or two. Usually they try to stop a woman driving alone at night. Badges can be bought by anyone and the gun, well most of us have one. All that to say that I have instructed my family not to stop for unmarked cars - particularly when they are not in uniform and just flash a badge. Any unusual actions on the part of the "officer" should be noted carefully.

They are to immediately call 911 and report the situation. They are not to stop, but continue to a well-lit populated area, police station, or fire house. If uniformed officers have not arrived and the 911 operator has not verified this is a real officer, they are to hit the panic alarm on the vehicle and make sure the windows are up, doors locked, engine running and in drive, until they do. Keep 911 on the line. The video is an excellent idea.

Remember the measure of your actions is what would a reasonable person do? Glad it worked out okay.

jmra...I agree with what you said with one exception. A police officer overcome by emotion is no longer acting professionally. In my view at least, that professionalism and noticeable difference in behavior is what distinguishes a good police officer from someone who might have less than honorable intentions. I guess I'm an idealist though.

[jamminbutter]

There was very little distance from where the contact occurred and where he stopped and got out (maybe 200-300 ft) and there was no safe place for me to pull and over and get out at that point.

[SA_Steve]

I was T-boned by a uniformed Houston Cop years ago in his personal vehicle. He ran a stop sign, I did not have a stop sign.
Surprise, he did not get a ticket, but his insurance paid big.

[jmra]

jmra...I agree with what you said with one exception. A police officer overcome by emotion is no longer acting professionally. In my view at least, that professionalism and noticeable difference in behavior is what distinguishes a good police officer from someone who might have less than honorable intentions. I guess I'm an idealist though.

Assuming the OPs perception of the officers actions are accurate. No offense intended toward the OP, but a third party (eye witness) might have a completely different perception of the officers actions. And, as with every encounter, there are two sides of a story of which we have only heard one.
Please do not take this as a slam on the OP. I have participated in many exercises were every participant had a different perception of an actors intentions/actions, all of those perceptions being wrong. In many of the exercises it's only when video is shown from multiple angles is the whole story pieced together. This is one of the reasons we hear about dash cam video being misleading, because we are only seeing part of the whole story.

[cb1000rider]

I was T-boned by a uniformed Houston Cop years ago in his personal vehicle. He ran a stop sign, I did not have a stop sign.
Surprise, he did not get a ticket, but his insurance paid big.

Recently, I tried complaining against a local LEO that was driving too fast when wet and slid into my wife's lane. He came to a complete stop just before hitting her, backed up, took off. I know he was responding to an accident call. That complaint wasn't taken so well... Actually, wasn't taken at all... All I was after was a little reminder to slow down and not cause accidents when responding to emergencies.

Small town life. I try to brush such things off these days.

[anygunanywhere]

My son was rear ended in Austin by an undercover DPS trooper while attending UT. The trooper was driving a state vehicles as his undercover car.

We went through a lot of trouble getting it resolved.

I finally had to call the governor's office. Ann Richards. Her aides knew me by voice already because I called her office at least weekly over her administration's shenanigans. The phone call worked because DPS settled a few days later. Maybe she thought it would keep me from calling. Not a chance.