Interesting Delima

Most CHL/LEO contacts are positive, how about yours? Bloopers are fun, but no names please, if it will cause a LEO problems!

Moderators: Keith B, carlson1


Topic author
WTR
Senior Member
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Interesting Delima

Postby WTR » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:32 am

Some 30 plus years ago,I was presented with an I testing delima that today would have turned out differently. I was working as a job super. When in a strip center I was working at I observed a man ranting and raving at a woman who had locked herself in her car. He would pace back and forth cussing at her and occasionally stop to beat on the roof of the car. I walked over to try and calm him down and make sure she was OK. I had radioed the office to call 911( we were not yet issued cell phones). When I approached the man yelled he was a Police Detective ( turne out he was) and pulled out his weapon. He had showed me no badge or credentials. Uniformed Officers finally showed and hauled him off. He was eventually released from the force due to this incident and other crimes ( he irritated her off and she spilled the beans). Now today I would be carrying and when he tuned his back (as he did) I would have drawn on him .
Last edited by WTR on Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.


Topic author
WTR
Senior Member
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby WTR » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:38 am

Apparently, this was a spat between a man and his mistress ( he was accusing her of cheating ). I also failed to report he rammed her car with his)

User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts: 10334
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby jmra » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:28 am

In the early '90s before having any form of LTC and living in NOLA, my wife and I encountered a mob of people cheering a man beating a woman who I later discovered was his ex. This was also before cell phones were common so calling 911 wasn't really an option. I engaged the man long enough to draw his attention away from the woman at which time my wife was able to grab the woman and blend in with the crowd.
I related the story to a close friend who was a police officer and to my surprise received one of the worst dress downs of my life. He began to relate event after event of domestic situations where officers taking action against a spouse in the process of beating a woman being acted by the very woman they were trying to protect. He also related that often abused women would end up testifying against officers who had intervened in public domestic fights.
It was an eye opener for me at the time and since getting my carry license a number of years ago I often think how I would have responded if I had been armed.
As I've stated previously, I'm not into playing if games, but in your post you stated something to the effect if I had been armed when he turned I would have shot him.
Unfortunately, the headline I see in my head in that situation is "LTC shoots officer". Not being very trusting, I also wonder under those circumstances how the woman's story might have changed as my LEO friend claimed was the norm in those type of situations.
Hindsight is 20/20, but ultimately although shooting the officer may have been justified, given the now known outcome, it would have been unnecessary. This obviously would have been tried in the media long before the facts reached a court room.
Said all that to say this, given the same situation with the man claiming to be an officer I would not have fired on him once he turned away and I was no longer in the line of fire unless I believed he was about to use the weapon on the woman. What I would have done is positioned my self behind a vehicle for my protection while still having the option of a clear shot if the situation continued to escalate. Firing a weapon should always be a last resort, not our first response. Of course this is just MHO.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member

User avatar

chamberc
Senior Member
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:45 pm
Location: Las Colinas

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby chamberc » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:57 am

I strongly suspect, once the uniformed's arrived, you would be a dead man had they seen you drawn down on someone they recognized as a fellow officer. Not a 100% chance, but highly likely.
NRA Life Member
TSRA Life Member
LTC since 2000
http://www.texas3006.com

User avatar

goose
Senior Member
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:20 pm
Location: Katy-ish

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby goose » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:18 am

If you have radio access to the folks calling 911, the only dilemma for me would be what is the maximum distance where I could still see and communicate good details. Preferably with the engine running.
NRA Endowment - NRA RSO - Μολὼν λάβε

User avatar

RogueUSMC
Senior Member
Posts: 1398
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 pm
Location: Smith County
Contact:

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby RogueUSMC » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:32 am

jmra wrote:In the early '90s before having any form of LTC and living in NOLA, my wife and I encountered a mob of people cheering a man beating a woman who I later discovered was his ex. This was also before cell phones were common so calling 911 wasn't really an option. I engaged the man long enough to draw his attention away from the woman at which time my wife was able to grab the woman and blend in with the crowd.
I related the story to a close friend who was a police officer and to my surprise received one of the worst dress downs of my life. He began to relate event after event of domestic situations where officers taking action against a spouse in the process of beating a woman being acted by the very woman they were trying to protect. He also related that often abused women would end up testifying against officers who had intervened in public domestic fights.
It was an eye opener for me at the time and since getting my carry license a number of years ago I often think how I would have responded if I had been armed.
As I've stated previously, I'm not into playing if games, but in your post you stated something to the effect if I had been armed when he turned I would have shot him.
Unfortunately, the headline I see in my head in that situation is "LTC shoots officer". Not being very trusting, I also wonder under those circumstances how the woman's story might have changed as my LEO friend claimed was the norm in those type of situations.
Hindsight is 20/20, but ultimately although shooting the officer may have been justified, given the now known outcome, it would have been unnecessary. This obviously would have been tried in the media long before the facts reached a court room.
Said all that to say this, given the same situation with the man claiming to be an officer I would not have fired on him once he turned away and I was no longer in the line of fire unless I believed he was about to use the weapon on the woman. What I would have done is positioned my self behind a vehicle for my protection while still having the option of a clear shot if the situation continued to escalate. Firing a weapon should always be a last resort, not our first response. Of course this is just MHO.

I smell what you are cooking but...lol

Don't confuse cover with concealment...if you depend on a vehicle to stop bullets, you may be disappointed...
A man will fight harder for his interests than for his rights.
- Napoleon Bonaparte
PFC Paul E. Ison USMC 1916-2001


Abraham
Senior Member
Posts: 6990
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:43 am

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby Abraham » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:51 am

LTC holders need to avoid domestic disputes. Even LEO's would like to avoid them, but when they have to interfere, they often end up biting off a huge chunk of awful...

My LTC doesn't confer to me the authority of an LEO, so if I come across a domestic dispute, I'll call it in, but I won't get in the middle of it.


Dan20703
Senior Member
Posts: 1030
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 pm
Location: Katy, Texas

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby Dan20703 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:59 am

Abraham wrote:LTC holders need to avoid domestic disputes. Even LEO's would like to avoid them, but when they have to interfere, they often end up biting off a huge chunk of awful...

My LTC doesn't confer to me the authority of an LEO, so if I come across a domestic dispute, I'll call it in, but I won't get in the middle of it.


WINNER!
There will always be prayer in schools as long as there are tests.

"It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

Image

User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts: 10334
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby jmra » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:02 am

RogueUSMC wrote:
jmra wrote:In the early '90s before having any form of LTC and living in NOLA, my wife and I encountered a mob of people cheering a man beating a woman who I later discovered was his ex. This was also before cell phones were common so calling 911 wasn't really an option. I engaged the man long enough to draw his attention away from the woman at which time my wife was able to grab the woman and blend in with the crowd.
I related the story to a close friend who was a police officer and to my surprise received one of the worst dress downs of my life. He began to relate event after event of domestic situations where officers taking action against a spouse in the process of beating a woman being acted by the very woman they were trying to protect. He also related that often abused women would end up testifying against officers who had intervened in public domestic fights.
It was an eye opener for me at the time and since getting my carry license a number of years ago I often think how I would have responded if I had been armed.
As I've stated previously, I'm not into playing if games, but in your post you stated something to the effect if I had been armed when he turned I would have shot him.
Unfortunately, the headline I see in my head in that situation is "LTC shoots officer". Not being very trusting, I also wonder under those circumstances how the woman's story might have changed as my LEO friend claimed was the norm in those type of situations.
Hindsight is 20/20, but ultimately although shooting the officer may have been justified, given the now known outcome, it would have been unnecessary. This obviously would have been tried in the media long before the facts reached a court room.
Said all that to say this, given the same situation with the man claiming to be an officer I would not have fired on him once he turned away and I was no longer in the line of fire unless I believed he was about to use the weapon on the woman. What I would have done is positioned my self behind a vehicle for my protection while still having the option of a clear shot if the situation continued to escalate. Firing a weapon should always be a last resort, not our first response. Of course this is just MHO.

I smell what you are cooking but...lol

Don't confuse cover with concealment...if you depend on a vehicle to stop bullets, you may be disappointed...

:iagree:
Engine block between me and any potential shooter.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member

User avatar

allisji
Senior Member
Posts: 783
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:44 am
Location: Seabrook

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby allisji » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:28 am

jmra wrote:As I've stated previously, I'm not into playing if games, but in your post you stated something to the effect if I had been armed when he turned I would have shot him.


You maybe not be into playing if games, but you did a good job of playing games with this comment. The OP, right or wrong, didn't say "when he turned I would have shot him." He said he would have drawn on him. You may have misinterpreted his post or maybe you understood what he meant, and decided to add the preface of "you stated something to the effect of."

Either way, the BG drew his weapon first. At that point you have to be ready to defend yourself. Whether you draw your weapon, or back away and make ready to draw your weapon.

My instinct tells me that drawing my weapon at that point with him being in the mental state that he is in would probably provoke him to shoot. I would try to back away calmly and create as much space as possible without showing my weapon. However, I would be putting myself at a disadvantage if I actually did end up needing to use my weapon.
LTC since 2015
I have contacted my state rep Dennis Paul about co-sponsoring HB560.


Topic author
WTR
Senior Member
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby WTR » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:54 am

I did say draw on him. I would have ordered him to the ground and waited. If forced to shoot, I would have preferred the 5' I was from him instead of the 30 yards from my truck ( where I retreated). A small crowd had gathered, so I had plenty of witnesses. As I had no weapon, I went back to my truck and prepared to run him over if need be.

User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts: 10334
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby jmra » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:08 am

allisji wrote:
jmra wrote:As I've stated previously, I'm not into playing if games, but in your post you stated something to the effect if I had been armed when he turned I would have shot him.


You maybe not be into playing if games, but you did a good job of playing games with this comment. The OP, right or wrong, didn't say "when he turned I would have shot him." He said he would have drawn on him. You may have misinterpreted his post or maybe you understood what he meant, and decided to add the preface of "you stated something to the effect of."

Either way, the BG drew his weapon first. At that point you have to be ready to defend yourself. Whether you draw your weapon, or back away and make ready to draw your weapon.

My instinct tells me that drawing my weapon at that point with him being in the mental state that he is in would probably provoke him to shoot. I would try to back away calmly and create as much space as possible without showing my weapon. However, I would be putting myself at a disadvantage if I actually did end up needing to use my weapon.

You are correct. I was using my iPhone and went from memory and incorrectly substituted "shot" for "drawn". No acceptable excuse for that on my part. I also agree with you that the end result probably would have been the same.
Once the man turned his attention away if I had the option of gaining cover or drawing my weapon I'm seeking cover. Once I've gained cover I have more time to assess the situation. As I stated previously, and based on your post I think we are on the same page, use of deadly force (which we both stated would be the likely outcome had he drawn) should be the last resort and not the first reaction. Had the OP been armed and the officer turned his head but continued to point the firearm in his direction that's a different story. But based on the OP it appears that once the OP backed off he was no longer the focus of the officers attention.
I guess ultimately my point is this, in the end everyone went home safely without the OP drawing a weapon (as he was unarmed). Given that, why look back and say had I been armed I would have done something differently that would more than likely have greatly altered the outcome negatively. Again, this is simply MHO. Glad everything worked out and no one was hurt.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member

User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts: 10334
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby jmra » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:10 am

WTR wrote:I did say draw on him. I would have ordered him to the ground and waited. If forced to shoot, I would have preferred the 5' I was from him instead of the 30 yards from my truck ( where I retreated). A small crowd had gathered, so I had plenty of witnesses. As I had no weapon, I went back to my truck and prepared to run him over if need be.

My apologies for misquoting you.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member


Topic author
WTR
Senior Member
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby WTR » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:17 am

No problem.

User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts: 10334
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Interesting Delima

Postby jmra » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:22 am

WTR,
Out of curiosity, after the officer turned his attention away from you, did he reholster?
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member


Return to “LEO Contacts & Bloopers”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests