How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

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BCGlocker
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How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby BCGlocker » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:08 am

I am curious to find out how you handle students failed the proficient test. Do you allow them to re-shoot? If so, how many times? Do you allow them to come back try to pass at your next LTC class? Do you charge for the re-shoot? If so, how much? Do you offer a separated "Prep" course to help the students pass the next time?
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Abraham
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Abraham » Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:40 am

BCGlocker,

Is anxiety regarding taking the test what your post is about?

If so, please, relax.

The test is very doable.

Practice a bit, with the pistol you'll be using ahead of time. No, not thousands upon thousands of rounds either. I practiced a couple times ahead of the test, hhmmm, maybe two separate times a week apart from each session, shooting 50 rounds each time.

Unless you're the worlds worst pistol shot, you'll pass just fine.

Also, there's plenty of time to finish the course.

The biggest thing is to relax.

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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby BCGlocker » Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:43 am

Abraham wrote:BCGlocker,

Is anxiety regarding taking the test what your post is about?

If so, please, relax.

The test is very doable.

Practice a bit, with the pistol you'll be using ahead of time. No, not thousands upon thousands of rounds either. I practiced a couple times ahead of the test, hhmmm, maybe two separate times a week apart from each session, shooting 50 rounds each time.

Unless you're the worlds worst pistol shot, you'll pass just fine.

Also, there's plenty of time to finish the course.

The biggest thing is to relax.


No this is a question for fellow instructors to see how everyone handles the situation.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby puma guy » Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:59 am

I'm not an instructor, but are there any specific prohibitions in the instructions/directives on giving the student a second at the time of the shooting part?
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby jimd1981 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:22 am

You're allowed three tries to pass both the written test and the proficiency test, per the Administrative code.

In the past (almost) ten years, I've had one student whose gun broke (parts failure), and had to borrow a gun and re-qualify.
He stopped and shot the second go-around (we usually go in groups of 2-3), and passed easily.

I've also had a few students "hold rounds" and not shoot the 15-yard portion after cleaning the targets at 3 and 7 (200/200 points) -- but that was when ammo was a little harder to find. I make them stand there, though, anyway, and tell me they held rounds.

But I can't say I ever had anyone fail the test outright.

If it did ever happen that a student was unable to pass after three tries, I'd issue them half of a CHL-100 and mark it on my CHL-8.
I'd work with them to schedule another chance to shoot again to get a proficiency-only CHL-100 and submit their application.

As for specific prohibitions, DPS makes it clear (and we reinforce the fact) that if your gun jams or malfunctions during a stage of the test, YOU, the shooter, have to fix it right then and there. I'll come by and look it over once the stage is finished. No "catch up" shots either :nono:


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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby RossA » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:26 am

Never had a student fail the test. If they fail to pass such an easy test, they will really be dangerous with a gun.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby zimmerdesignz » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:35 am

RossA wrote:Never had a student fail the test. If they fail to pass such an easy test, they will really be dangerous with a gun.

I'm not an instructor but I agree. During my test, there were some real "special people". Lets just say know gun safety, don't look down the barrel at a jam. Don't buy a new gun you have never shot and are unfamiliar with and head off to the test.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby BCGlocker » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:50 am

zimmerdesignz wrote:
RossA wrote:Never had a student fail the test. If they fail to pass such an easy test, they will really be dangerous with a gun.

I'm not an instructor but I agree. During my test, there were some real "special people". Lets just say know gun safety, don't look down the barrel at a jam. Don't buy a new gun you have never shot and are unfamiliar with and head off to the test.


One of my closest friend, a fellow LTC instructor, told me he started to wear his Kevlar vest with big red lettering "Instructor" on it when he teaches LTC Classes. He told me in two years of teaching, he had two loaded gun pointed at him already. As he stated: “Would it be ironic, after 30 years in the Army, retired as a lieutenant colonel, having kicking down doors, jump out of planes and helicopters and get killed at a LTC class I was teaching?" is it really that bad (I am a new LTC instructor getting ready to teach my first class)?
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby jmorris » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:58 am

Do you have the reference for that three times? GC §411.188. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENT does not say anything about any limits but at least five subsections have been deleted since 2005. In the Jan instructor class they just said (IIRC) that because of time limitations they would only do two retries.

I tell my students that if they aren't comfortable with being able to pass first time to bring 100 rounds in case a second pass is necessary. If they don't pass on two then I suggest a little one-on-one training.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm

As jimd1981 noted, DPS allows students three attempts to qualify. I've only had four students not pass on the first attempt. Three passed on the second and the fourth passed on the third attempt. I don't charge them for multiple attempts. The three who passed on the second attempt simply shot with another relay. (Luckily, they initially shot with the first relay.) The lady who needed three tries shot with me after the class was over for everyone else.

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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby WildBill » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:03 pm

jmorris wrote:Do you have the reference for that three times? GC §411.188. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENT does not say anything about any limits but at least five subsections have been deleted since 2005. In the Jan instructor class they just said (IIRC) that because of time limitations they would only do two retries.

I tell my students that if they aren't comfortable with being able to pass first time to bring 100 rounds in case a second pass is necessary. If they don't pass on two then I suggest a little one-on-one training.

As jimd1981 posted, it is referenced in the Texas Administrative Code Title 37:

(b) A student must score at least 70% on the written examination and shooting proficiency examination, in order to establish proficiency. A student will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and shooting proficiency examination.

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=11
Last edited by WildBill on Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Scott B. » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:31 pm

BCGlocker wrote:... is it really that bad (I am a new LTC instructor getting ready to teach my first class)?


I've helped out as an RSO (only) for some bigger classes while I wait the May instructor's class slot.

This is purely my opinion, but yes. It's that bad. Good 20% need to be in basic pistol instead. I've seen all the classics; never shot the gun before/never loaded a magazine before, rounds in the mag backwards, mag 'successfully' inserted backward, looking at the target - while shooting the floor below it, and every body position you can possibly imagine.

Not to mention low cut tops, open toed shoes, flip flops, etc.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby hankintexas » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:51 pm

I have had just one fail to pass the shooting qual. She was over 75 years old, using a snub nose .357 and using .357 Magnum loads. It was her fathers gun. I had to stop her due to her shooting out lights and the ceiling..... Her poor wrist was purple.

I had her come back 3 weeks later and let her use a Walther PK380. She passed with a 90%. She then ordered a new pistol from the range and promised to practice with it.

Yes, I gave her a free class and made sure she was safe on the range. I think we need to address other issues with our students at times. JUST BECAUSE YOU FIND PAPPY'S PISTOL on a shelf, it does not mean that everyone can carry it, hold it and operate it safely. Choose a firearm that fits you. Also, shoot the pistol you are going to qualify with at a range prior. At least know how to load, hold and shoot safely.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby AF-Odin » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:04 pm

Never had a student fail YET. Prior to accepting students for the LTC Course I conduct an interview to assess knowldge (I only teach individual students or small classes). Based upon the assessment, I may recommend that they complete my Basic Pistol Shooting Class prior to doing the LTC.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby jmorris » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:15 pm

WildBill wrote:As jimd1981 posted, it is referenced in the Texas Administrative Code Title 37:

(b) A student must score at least 70% on the written examination and shooting proficiency examination, in order to establish proficiency. A student will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and shooting proficiency examination.

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/r ... ch=6&rl=11


Thanks. It would have be nice if they pointed this out at the instructor class.
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