How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

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Scott B.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Scott B. » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:19 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:A private LTC instructor forum would not be workable because there's no realistic way for me to verify that people granted access are LTC instructors.

Chas.



It'd be some work for sure, but possible I think. I'm on a national FFLs only forum. To gain access you have to send in a copy of your FFL.

There's only 3.5k LTC instructors and a fraction of those on the forum. Dump the task onto your mods. Instructors who want into it send a snapshot of their ID on top of their LTC/CHL certificate. Makes sure the photos are deleted and not stored somewhere.

Just a thought.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby RogueUSMC » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:19 am

Scott B. wrote:...Dump the task onto your mods...

You've never been a mod have you?
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Scott B.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Scott B. » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:37 am

I'm an administrator, that's what mods are for (and why they get paid the big bucks)! "rlol"
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warnmar10
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby warnmar10 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:28 am

Scott B. wrote:It'd be some work for sure, but possible I think. I'm on a national FFLs only forum. To gain access you have to send in a copy of your FFL.

There's only 3.5k LTC instructors and a fraction of those on the forum. Dump the task onto your mods. Instructors who want into it send a snapshot of their ID on top of their LTC/CHL certificate. Makes sure the photos are deleted and not stored somewhere.

Just a thought.

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Scott B.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Scott B. » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:47 pm

Well, bless your heart.
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Ruark
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Ruark » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:21 pm

Is there any pattern of WHY these people fail such an easy test? E.g., flinching, stance, grip, etc.? Do you attend to such issues or do you ignore them with the viewpoint of either you pass or you don't? I can see not wanting to bog down a class with too much "how to shoot" content.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby locke_n_load » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:53 am

Question:
I had a student fail the shooting portion twice, and at that point, I wanted her to get some additional training (her husband would be able to do that). Is it written somewhere that she has to retake the whole course? I guess she has 1 more try either way. I have signed off on half the CHL-100 stating she passed the written the test. I intend to sign the proficiency portion when she comes back with the correct date and passes (not charging her any money).
Should I submit my form CHL-8 with a check next to written test as passed and a check next to failed for the proficiency test and submit, then submit a CHL-8 separately just for her proficiency when she passes?
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby twomillenium » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:36 am

I submit a CHL 8 for the student that shoots on a separate day even if they are the only student on the CHL. I do not check off on the portion of the test not taken on that day. The CHL8 does not allow multiple dates, I was instructed by the Dept. that if the classroom portion was more than one day, that I should use the last day because that should also reflect the day of the written test.

Sometimes the same student will appear on 2 separate CHL8s, one for classroom and one for proficiency. I issue one CHL100 with proper date of classroom and proficiency in space provided for such. If a student wants their classroom CHL100 or just wants proficiency then I VOID the area not received by me. (This is rare) I have had no problem with the Dept., when using these procedures.
An Instructor should never check failed on any portion of the CHL8 unless the student has failed 3 times or refused to retake a failed test. Incomplete is shown by not checking either pass or fail and the CHL100 should never be filled out in that portion and if student requests an incomplete CHL100 then the portion not taken should be unsigned and VOIDED.
Last edited by twomillenium on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby jimd1981 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:39 am

That's how I have handled it. I also include (in my filed documents) a text file documenting the student and the need for further instruction.
So then, if/when you're audited, you can pull up the notes and show the auditor why one of your students didn't pass the shooting portion.

locke_n_load wrote:Question:
I had a student fail the shooting portion twice, and at that point, I wanted her to get some additional training (her husband would be able to do that). Is it written somewhere that she has to retake the whole course? I guess she has 1 more try either way. I have signed off on half the CHL-100 stating she passed the written the test. I intend to sign the proficiency portion when she comes back with the correct date and passes (not charging her any money).
Should I submit my form CHL-8 with a check next to written test as passed and a check next to failed for the proficiency test and submit, then submit a CHL-8 separately just for her proficiency when she passes?


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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby twomillenium » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:47 am

Ruark wrote:Is there any pattern of WHY these people fail such an easy test? E.g., flinching, stance, grip, etc.? Do you attend to such issues or do you ignore them with the viewpoint of either you pass or you don't? I can see not wanting to bog down a class with too much "how to shoot" content.

It is usually because of inexperience, fear or physical inability at that time. If a student cannot keep up with the class due to handling or safety, they will need to make arrangements with me to shoot again even if it is on a different day. They will have the chance to receive shooting instruction before shooting again and I do not require them to get that instruction from me. However, the student will only get a total of 3 chances to pass before they are considered failed, per TDPS Admin. Code. (I have never had a student fail the written or proficiency test 3 times)
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby Liberty » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:26 am

Does the student have to have the ability to load magazines and rack the slide? My wife has arthritic hands and has a hard time with these procedures. Although can shoot pretty decently and can rack in a method not generally approve method by most ranges.
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby locke_n_load » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:36 am

twomillenium wrote:I submit a CHL 8 for the student that shoots on a separate day even if they are the only student on the CHL. I do not check off on the portion of the test not taken on that day. The CHL8 does not allow multiple dates, I was instructed by the Dept. that if the classroom portion was more than one day, that I should use the last day because that should also reflect the day of the written test.

Sometimes the same student will appear on 2 separate CHL8s, one for classroom and one for proficiency. I issue one CHL100 with proper date of classroom and proficiency in space provided for such. If a student wants their classroom CHL100 or just wants proficiency then I VOID the area not received by me. (This is rare) I have had no problem with the Dept., when using these procedures.
An Instructor should never check failed on any portion of the CHL8 unless the student has failed 3 times or refused to retake a failed test. Incomplete is shown by not checking either pass or fail and the CHL100 should never be filled out in that portion and if student requests an incomplete CHL100 then the portion not taken should be unsigned and VOIDED.


Since she hasn't had the three tries yet, I will just leave her proficiency as blank for now and upload that copy, then upload a separate one just for her range proficiency. I'm going to get her to do a warmup on the range so that I can see her shooting has improved before actually giving her her third try to avoid having a failed 3rd test. Thanks.
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twomillenium
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby twomillenium » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:43 am

locke_n_load wrote:Since she hasn't had the three tries yet, I will just leave her proficiency as blank for now and upload that copy, then upload a separate one just for her range proficiency. I'm going to get her to do a warmup on the range so that I can see her shooting has improved before actually giving her her third try to avoid having a failed 3rd test. Thanks.

You only need to send separate CHL8, you can supply her with only one CHL100 with the appropriate dates filled in for each portion. The bottom date should be the date that the completed CHL100 was issued. BTW, a student can take a proficiency test before, during or after the classroom portion, even if it was given on separate dates.

P.S. the patience you show will be returned many times over. Why some students can be frustrating, they are usually trying to overcome fear and lack of experience and you are the first responder to this and probably their best chance. Do follow the directions required by the TDPS. :tiphat:
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA pistol instructor, RSO, NRA Endowment Life , TSRA, Glock enthusiast (tho I have others)
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locke_n_load
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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby locke_n_load » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:58 am

twomillenium wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:Since she hasn't had the three tries yet, I will just leave her proficiency as blank for now and upload that copy, then upload a separate one just for her range proficiency. I'm going to get her to do a warmup on the range so that I can see her shooting has improved before actually giving her her third try to avoid having a failed 3rd test. Thanks.

You only need to send separate CHL8, you can supply her with only one CHL100 with the appropriate dates filled in for each portion. The bottom date should be the date that the completed CHL100 was issued. BTW, a student can take a proficiency test before, during or after the classroom portion, even if it was given on separate dates.

P.S. the patience you show will be returned many times over. Why some students can be frustrating, they are usually trying to overcome fear and lack of experience and you are the first responder to this and probably their best chance. Do follow the directions required by the TDPS. :tiphat:


Yeah I meant the proficiency on the CHL-8 I was leaving blank for now, I am filling out the CHL-100 as she completes those portions successfully. She and her husband took the class together, so I'm also doing this for him too (friend/coworker of mine). Hopefully they will recommend me to more folks seeing that I actually care.
"They that would give up Essential Liberty, for a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

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Re: How to Handle Student's Failed Proficient Test

Postby asbandr » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:26 pm

Sorry to revive an older thread, but I'm surprised to see so few student failures for other instructors. Maybe just a difference in volume of students? I work in a decently sized gun range in a large city and my classes range from 15-30 students once or twice a week. I have at least one failed shooting proficiency per class it seems.

I start off the class by asking if anyone has never fired a handgun before, or if they feel they need more instruction before taking the proficiency. Very few have said yes. I let all students know that the course is designed for experienced shooters and that my signature on their chl-100 is to certify that they know how to operate their handgun and be safe with it. I also tell them that they could be disqualified for unsafe handling or lack of understanding on how to operate their gun. Such as a lady I disqualified because she couldn't rack the slide of her gun so she turned it around and tried to push the slide forward (loaded gun, pointed at her abdomen). I tell them that if they get disqualified for safety violations, I will require them to take some sort of safety lesson. They don't have to take it with me, or even at my range, but I won't trust that somehow magically overnight they've learned how safely handle their gun. I tell them that if they are safe and just didn't get the points they need, I'll do a reshoot with them at their convenience. I usually have between 5-10 students on the line at a time and keep an eye on anything they can improve upon such as grip and stance and trigger pull.

As far as the written section, I've had maybe 3 out of approximately 750 students fail the first time around. I believe they were both due to language barriers when reading the test. I give students 3 tries for both shooting qualification and written test.

I do find that students often miss the same questions, and have done what I can to further explain those questions during the presentation. I think it boils down to students not reading the entire question and all answers carefully.
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