Lever-action pistol

A meeting place for CHL instructors

Moderators: carlson1, Crossfire


Topic author
skeathley
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am
Location: McKinney, TX
Contact:

Lever-action pistol

#1

Post by skeathley »

Is a lever-action pistol legal for the LTC? A student called, has a Rossi Ranch Hand. He says it is classified as a pistol, and can be carried in a holster. I have not seen one since the 1960s.

Thanks,

:confused5
Texas LTC Instructor / RSO / SSC
Viet Nam Veteran: 25th Infantry, Cu Chi
https://mckinneyfirearmstraining.com

flechero
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 3485
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
Location: Central Texas

Re: Lever-action pistol

#2

Post by flechero »

Fist off I don't know the right answer...

While its legally considered a handgun (that's probably what matters) I don't think it's practical or fills the intent of the LTC application. An AR "pistol" is much the same, IMO. Lots of things can be holstered. ...lol

Topic author
skeathley
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am
Location: McKinney, TX
Contact:

Re: Lever-action pistol

#3

Post by skeathley »

True, but there are a lot of guns that are hardly concealable: CZ75, M&P .45, 6 inch .357 Magnum, etc.
This can technically be fired with one hand, which is the State definition of a handgun. I would have said no, but don't think I am justified in doing so. It's not much more absurd than an 8 inch single-action .22 revolver.

:biggrinjester:
Texas LTC Instructor / RSO / SSC
Viet Nam Veteran: 25th Infantry, Cu Chi
https://mckinneyfirearmstraining.com
User avatar

Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Lever-action pistol

#4

Post by Pawpaw »

I can't think of a single reason why you couldn't.

Think about it a minute:

You can legally carry a pistol, either openly or concealed, if you have an LTC.

You can legally carry a long gun, either openly or concealed, whether you have an LTC or not.'

So, if you have an LTC, what law would you be breaking?
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

Topic author
skeathley
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am
Location: McKinney, TX
Contact:

Re: Lever-action pistol

#5

Post by skeathley »

Carrying it is not an issue. My question is whether it is acceptable for use in the Proficiency. It is neither a semi-automatic nor a revolver, and looks like an SBR, but it seems to be classified as a pistol. It can be fired with one hand, which fits the Penal Code definition, although a person would typically use both hands, same as most other handguns.

I don't want to deny him without a valid reason, but haven't found one yet.

:rules:
Texas LTC Instructor / RSO / SSC
Viet Nam Veteran: 25th Infantry, Cu Chi
https://mckinneyfirearmstraining.com

rotor
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: Lever-action pistol

#6

Post by rotor »

Previous law required testing with a semi-auto which allowed semi-auto or revolver carry. Previous law said if revolver was used for test than revolver only could be carried. Present law says either can be used to qualify and either can be carried. I would not classify a lever action pistol as a revolver or a semi-auto and therefore in my opinion it could not be used for test. My opinion only and I could not find any support beyond what I have presented.
User avatar

rob777
Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:17 am
Location: Cypress TX

Re: Lever-action pistol

#7

Post by rob777 »

I think there might be a distinction between "can" be fired with one hand vs the definition that says it's "designed" to be fired with one hand. Watched guys on the tv shot Top Shot a few years back firing AKs with one hand. Also agree with the couple of comments that it's not a semi-auto or revolver so doesn't quite meet the requirements.
I'm stilling debating (in my own head) whether AR 'pistols' should/could be allowed for the proficiency test...
"Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

Topic author
skeathley
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am
Location: McKinney, TX
Contact:

Re: Lever-action pistol

#8

Post by skeathley »

I decided to disallow this gun for the Proficiency. It violates the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

:rules:
Texas LTC Instructor / RSO / SSC
Viet Nam Veteran: 25th Infantry, Cu Chi
https://mckinneyfirearmstraining.com

twomillenium
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1691
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:42 pm
Location: houston area

Re: Lever-action pistol

#9

Post by twomillenium »

I read nothing about the spirit of the law in the text of the handbook. If it is a pistol and is 22 caliber or bigger then it can be used. The only decision I see an instructor having is, can it be done safely without endangering others around them. If they are not proficient in the handling of the pistol especially (an unusual style) you do not have to give them another chance, just tell them to use something else. I was told by one DPS instructor that a student could use a two shot derringer, but they would have the same time constraints as anyone else.
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA pistol instructor, RSO, NRA Endowment Life , TSRA, Glock enthusiast (tho I have others)
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to add it to a fruit salad.

You will never know another me, this could be good or not so good, but it is still true.

cmgee67
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1914
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: Lever-action pistol

#10

Post by cmgee67 »

A friend of mine took a class that had a guy in it use an AK pistol and the instructor didn’t care. The instructor said it’s semi auto considered a pistol so why not.
User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 26790
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Lever-action pistol

#11

Post by The Annoyed Man »

An AR pistol used to be legal for concealed carry if you have a license, so I don’t see why a lever action pistol wouldn’t be legal.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT

srothstein
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 5273
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Luling, TX

Re: Lever-action pistol

#12

Post by srothstein »

I am not an instructor, so I could very well be wrong, but I think the lever action pistol should be allowed if the person can qualify with it. Part of my reasoning is that I don't recall the law specifying revolver or semi-auto. IIRC, it specified semi-auto or non-semi-auto. This is a slight but possibly important difference in the rules. We all thought of the NSA class as revolver, but I think the law used the other term.

Consider where you would classify a pistol like the Thompson Contender. This is a single shot bolt action handgun firing rifle calibers. Whether you would allow it or not, which class of license would have been required to carry it?

The second reason I think it should have been allowed is that there is nothing I can find in the law now on classification of the pistol. There is no reason under current law to disallow any pistol that does not have optic enhancers.
Steve Rothstein

Richbirdhunter
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 7:45 pm
Location: DFW Denton County

Re: Lever-action pistol

#13

Post by Richbirdhunter »

Here’s how Rossi describes their product, Rossi ranch hand lever action pistol-the model 92 ranch hand pistol has a lever action with large loop. 12” barrel length and a overall length of 24” comes stick with buckhorn sights, blue finish and a hardwood stock.

I can see the students side of this, it’s hard to argue that this one is not a pistol. I wouldn’t use it to qualify, but I can’t see any legal reason to tell him no.

( I’m not an instructor)
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.
User avatar

warnmar10
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:57 am

Re: Lever-action pistol

#14

Post by warnmar10 »

IANAI but:
CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS
Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
Ask him to demonstrate proficiency with one hand. If he can aim, shoot and re-cock 5 rounds in the allotted time using only one hand let him use it on the test.
User avatar

Jusme
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 5350
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
Location: Johnson County, Texas

Re: Lever-action pistol

#15

Post by Jusme »

warnmar10 wrote:IANAI but:
CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS
Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
Ask him to demonstrate proficiency with one hand. If he can aim, shoot and re-cock 5 rounds in the allotted time using only one hand let him use it on the test.

There are no regulations, in the LTC firearms proficiency test, that require any gun be fired with only one hand. To require that, of someone, with a non-traditional "pistol" seems unfair. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:
Post Reply

Return to “Instructors' Corner”