DUI in PA 2008

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Pjl169
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DUI in PA 2008

Postby Pjl169 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:07 pm

Hello all! I have been reading and can't find a similar case to mine so here it goes..

I received a DUI in September 2008 in Pennsylvania. PA lists a first offense as an ungraded misdemeanor. However, after all the classes fines and license suspension, the DUI was expongued. While it stays on my PA driving recrod for 10 years, it shows that i was never "convicted."
I moved to TX in march 2010.


How does this affect my eligibility? Please address the class of misdemeanor, and the expungement. Looking forward to getting an answer.

Thanks!

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Keith B » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:18 pm

First off, welcome to the forum. :tiphat:

Since the DWI is a class B misdemeanor here in Texas, and you only have the one, then you should be ineligible from date of conviction or date of expungment for 5 years. Expungment I believe is going to count like deferred adjudication here in Texas.
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Pjl169
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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Pjl169 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:33 pm

This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible? Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

Just trying to figure this out. I guess one place to start is pull the files from PA and see what's there?

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:37 pm

As Keith said, Class A and B Misdemeanors carry a 5 year disqualification for CHL eligibility purposes. However, if PA's expungment standards and procedures are like Texas, then the DUI does not disqualify you for a CHL. The problem arises because a Texas expungement means all records from all agencies are physically destroyed or turned over to the defendant. DPS unfortunately got an unfavorable ruling from the Texas Supreme Court that requires any state's expungment procedures to be like Texas' or it is not expunged for CHL eligibility purposes.

We added language to the Code in 2009 that greatly broadens the language that an order can contain that will result in a "conviction" not being considered a "conviction" for CHL eligibility. Even if your expgungment doesn't meet the Texas requirement, you may be eligible now if the court entered an order that "otherwise vacated, set aside, annulled, invalidated, voided, or sealed under [PA] state . . . law." Tex. Gov't Code §411.171(4)(c). DPS doesn't like this language and they currently won't approve your application on this basis. I am representing an Army Sgt. on this issue and we won at the JP Court level. DPS appealed to the county court at law and the case is abated until my client gets back from Afghanistan. Hopefully, DPS will keep appealing until we get into the appellate court and we can get favorable case law.

There is another issue you need to consider. Pursuant to Texas law, if the potential penalty was confinement in jail or penitentiary for one year or more, it is considered a felony for purposes of CHL eligibility. Tex. Gov't Code §411.172(b)(1)(c). Some states have misdemeanors that carry a potential penalty of more than a year in jail; some even have 3 year and 5 year misdemeanors.

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:42 pm

Pjl169 wrote:This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible?

It sounds like the PA procedure is tantamount to a deferred adjudication in Texas and a successfully completed deferred adjudication is considered a "conviction" for CHL eligibility purposes. There are exceptions depending upon the wording of the dismissal order as I mentioned in my prior post.

Pjl169 wrote: Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

Since many states define offenses differently, Texas had to add a procedures to use in determining what an offense would have been in Texas. You can see that procedure/requirement in Tex. Gov't Code §411.172(b)(2).

Feel free to send me a copy of your dismissal order and any other papers and I can give you an opinion.

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby apostate » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:45 pm

You say you moved here from PA so you may have another option during the five year ineligibility.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... rocity.pdf
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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Pjl169 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:39 pm

It will see if I can get the papers. Thanks for the help.

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Lambda Force
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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Lambda Force » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:10 pm

Pjl169 wrote:This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible? Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

First, if you weren't convicted, why did you have to take classes and pay fines? Why was your license suspended? That doesn't usually happen with a "not guilty" verdict so it sure sounds like you were convicted, even if Pennsylvania calles it something else. Second, it's a Texas license so the Texas DPS can use the Texas category of the crime.

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby WildBill » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:26 pm

Lambda Force wrote:
Pjl169 wrote:This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible? Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

First, if you weren't convicted, why did you have to take classes and pay fines? Why was your license suspended? That doesn't usually happen with a "not guilty" verdict so it sure sounds like you were convicted, even if Pennsylvania calles it something else. Second, it's a Texas license so the Texas DPS can use the Texas category of the crime.

In some states, an expungement means that you can legally say that you were not convicted.
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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Lambda Force » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:53 pm

WildBill wrote:
Lambda Force wrote:
Pjl169 wrote:This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible? Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

First, if you weren't convicted, why did you have to take classes and pay fines? Why was your license suspended? That doesn't usually happen with a "not guilty" verdict so it sure sounds like you were convicted, even if Pennsylvania calles it something else. Second, it's a Texas license so the Texas DPS can use the Texas category of the crime.

In some states, an expungement means that you can legally say that you were not convicted.

If it's not the truth then it's not the truth, even if the law says you can lie.

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby WildBill » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:59 pm

Lambda Force wrote:
WildBill wrote:
Lambda Force wrote:
Pjl169 wrote:This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible? Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

First, if you weren't convicted, why did you have to take classes and pay fines? Why was your license suspended? That doesn't usually happen with a "not guilty" verdict so it sure sounds like you were convicted, even if Pennsylvania calles it something else. Second, it's a Texas license so the Texas DPS can use the Texas category of the crime.

In some states, an expungement means that you can legally say that you were not convicted.

If it's not the truth then it's not the truth, even if the law says you can lie.

The law that can convict a person can also "unconvict" them.
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Lambda Force
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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Lambda Force » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:06 pm

Texas law can decide what Texas considers a conviction for Texas CHL purposes. :tiphat:

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby WildBill » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:14 pm

Lambda Force wrote:Texas law can decide what Texas considers a conviction for Texas CHL purposes. :tiphat:

This is the truth. :tiphat:
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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:52 pm

Lambda Force wrote:
WildBill wrote:
Lambda Force wrote:
Pjl169 wrote:This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible? Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

First, if you weren't convicted, why did you have to take classes and pay fines? Why was your license suspended? That doesn't usually happen with a "not guilty" verdict so it sure sounds like you were convicted, even if Pennsylvania calles it something else. Second, it's a Texas license so the Texas DPS can use the Texas category of the crime.

In some states, an expungement means that you can legally say that you were not convicted.

If it's not the truth then it's not the truth, even if the law says you can lie.


Texas law allows a person who as received an expungement to testify under oath that they have never been arrested or convicted.

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Re: DUI in PA 2008

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:53 pm

WildBill wrote:
Lambda Force wrote:
WildBill wrote:
Lambda Force wrote:
Pjl169 wrote:This is what I'm most confused about and why I posted.... If I was never convicted, how does that make it in eligible? Secondly, if PA calls it an uncoded misdemeanor how does that transfer to being a class a or b in Texas?

First, if you weren't convicted, why did you have to take classes and pay fines? Why was your license suspended? That doesn't usually happen with a "not guilty" verdict so it sure sounds like you were convicted, even if Pennsylvania calles it something else. Second, it's a Texas license so the Texas DPS can use the Texas category of the crime.

In some states, an expungement means that you can legally say that you were not convicted.

If it's not the truth then it's not the truth, even if the law says you can lie.

The law that can convict a person can also "unconvict" them.


Precisely.

Chas.
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