Concealed AOW by CHL past 30.06/blue TABC sign?

[RPB]

I've searched the forum, and it's early my brain isn't awake, and I once knew this but ...


AOW (Any Other Weapon

Examples:

6.5" or 7" barrel

serbu SUPER-SHORTY
http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
Safety Harbor KEG 12
http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/Sh ... _info.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

QUESTIONS:

A CHL passing a 30.06 sign with one? (It isn't a "handgun")

Are they even legal to carry concealed?

I believe it's legal to carry Openly; but more questioning concealed? ... by a CHL passing a 30.06 or BLUE TABC sign.

Just considering/toying with the idea of getting one, and seeing what benefit paying the extra $5.00 to the Federal Govt might accomplish.

Am I correct they are legal to carry openly? (CHL or not? ... except of course to places weapons are prohibited;

so wondering if they aren't a prohibited carry item by 30.06/blue signs for a CHL ... (if legal to conceal them)

Just thinkin' cause that's lighter weight than an AK/AR carbine/rifle and if the cost of $5.00 tax/insurance allows the freedom to exercise the right of self-protection past a 30.06 sign for a CHL.

(Freedom for sale ... $5.00)

My first thought is that if it isn't a "place weapons prohibited, but there exists a 30.06 sign, one can carry away, but that it would be illegal to carry past a blue TABC sign ... If no one answers, I'll try looking it up after I get home from Church,

Posted this so I wouldn't forget; and it sometimes comes up and others may wonder, but I didn't locate a thread with answers to all that in one spot.

[jimlongley]

In my own opinion, worth every penny you paid for it, that area is so perfectly grey that photographers could use it for a "18% grey card."

Those are not handguns under federal law, so they probably wouldn't be considered such under state law, and thus would not be covered by CHL rules, even if Texas' definition of a handgun, in 46.01 says "(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand."

As such they are also effectively banned by "no guns" signs of any ilk.

Remember, Texas' "Concealed Handgun License" is a license from the state to carry a concealed HANDGUN wherever the state will allow you to do so, not a "Concealed Firearms License" or "Concealed Weapons Permit" as in the wording some other states use, so it only, truly, applies to handguns, so the grey area, IMHO, is in whether they would meet the definition, in 46.01(5) which also has (9) and (10) definitions of "Machine gun" and "Short-barrel firearm" which would seem to draw a distinction between them and "handgun."

That said, I have to wonder how many rounds of Aguila Mini-Shells they would carry.

[tacticool]

IANAL so I think it's obvious they are not handguns but they are firearms.

All NFA rules apply.

[RPB]

Those are not handguns under federal law, so they probably
wouldn't be considered such under state law, and thus would not be
covered by CHL rules, even if Texas' definition of a handgun, in 46.01
says "(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or
adapted to be fired with one hand."

Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a
projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an
explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to
that use. ....
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to
be fired with one hand.
(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less
than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18
inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it
has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if
he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's
possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National
Firearms Act, as amended.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
DOES NOT APPLY...
doesn't include it as an unlawful CARRYING weapon= handgun, illegal knife, or club

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under

Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed
handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
DOES NOT APPLY (not a handgun)

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
Can't carry "firearms" here, license or not ANYWAY


So basically, I could carry one anywhere an unlicensed person could
legally carry an AK-47? That will take some research ...

Interesting; it's a whole different ball game

I'd HAVE to OPEN CARRY an AOW here
Or, leave AOW in the car, and carry my HANDGUN concealed under my CHL, since it's an unenforceable sign/ NOT a 30.06 ... so that gives options.



If I ALSO have a CHL, AND a handgun of the proper type (SA)
wonder if I can legally walk past a blue sign in a restaurant that serves alcohol etc. YES I CAN
BECAUSE
Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
DOES NOT APPLY...


I CAN Walk past a 30.06, with an AOW open OR concealed, if I leave my handgun in the car


I CAN Walk past any 30.05 no HANDGUN signs, with an AOW open or concealed


but NOT 30.05 no FIREARMS signs


But,

Considering the CHL exemption/exception to the prohibition for school
parking lots under the Federal GFSZ ...
If I ALSO have a CHL, AND a handgun of the proper type (SA)
wonder if the handgun is legal but the AOW is illegal in my car in a
school parking lot under State AND Federal law.... nope; an AOW isnt a handgun of the type I'm licensed to carry which is exempt from prohibition by the GFSZ act

And a picture with a pistol in a circle ghostbusters style sign with no text/words........ who knows?

The $5.00 allows carrying past a 30.06 .... which there are none in my city, so ... not much benefit, unless I visit the properly posted hospital in Round Rock. Which I'm only seeing as off limits to CHLs if a 30.06 is posted, but hospitals are not listed under Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. unless I'm overlooking something
Health Safety Code or something

Lots to learn, lots to learn.... whole new ballgame/horse of a different color
Might be worth it if a BUNCH of 30.06 signs started popping up.
Actually, if there was ONE 30.06 sign in my city somewhere I wanted to go regularly, I'd do it, but I'll probably just get a 2011 (double stacked high capacity 1911) for now.


However, I'm still thinking and going to learn about this.

Disclaimer:
I'm not a lawyer, and though I may legally walk past a sign; there could be consequences of many sorts.,,, I'm just researching out loud here; and I could be wrong, so don't rely on this information. Because basically ........ I'm clueless.

[denwego]

Blue signs are notice for the enhanced penalty of 46.02 for carrying an unlicensed handgun, illegal knife, or club in an alcohol sale establishment (third degree felony instead of class A misd.). They essentially are a scarier way to say "you might only be committing a misdemeanor out there, but it's a felony in here" and keep people from doing something that they might not otherwise risk. You have to violate 46.02 in the first place for the enhanced penalty to be applicable, so carrying a rifle or the like couldn't trigger it.

You can search every occurrence of the word "firearm" in the ABC code of laws, and every penalty in that code attached to carrying a long gun (with or without a CHL) in a licensed establishment punishes the proprietor, not the carrier. It's a license-revocable thing to "knowingly allow" someone to possess a firearm in a licensed establishment, on or off premises, unless they're a cop, a CHL carrier, the license holder/manager of the facilities, or a few other very limited exceptions... but that incentivizes the management with threats, not the carrier. If you were carrying an AOW/SRB concealed, they wouldn't "knowingly allow," and I can't find anything that actually punishes the carrier if the weapon is legally owned, and I've looked a lot for something that backs up the general "weapons" wording found on the blue sign.

As a second opinion, I might argue that certain AOWs might be considered "handguns" under Texas law, since we define it as a firearm designed to be fired with one hand. A smoothbore pistol or an unconventionally-shaped firearm would probably be handguns, too; a Serbu Shorty or other AOW with a second handgrip, clearly meant to be held with two hands, probably couldn't be.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer. But that's how I read everything.

[PappaGun]

This is interesting.

Thank you all for the questions and informative answers.

I am curious about a Class III transfer now.

In regards to the requirement that the Police Chief or Sheriff sign off on the transfer; is that handled by the FFL as part of the transfer or would I have to go to him myself?

[Carry-a-Kimber]

This is interesting.

Thank you all for the questions and informative answers.

I am curious about a Class III transfer now.

In regards to the requirement that the Police Chief or Sheriff sign off on the transfer; is that handled by the FFL as part of the transfer or would I have to go to him myself?

This is typically handled by the tranferee; however, it can be bi-passed if you have a trust, incorporation, or LLC. Many police departments will not sign a Class III transfer becasue of public/political reasons. By going the Trust, LLC, Inc route, you do not have to sub,it pics, fingerprints, or CLEO signoff.

[Smallestbodyman]

Sounds even more confusing then just knowing where I can and can not carry my hand gun. I think I'll just learn that first. Rpb, great disclaimer by the way!

[RPB]

Blue signs are notice for the enhanced penalty of 46.02 for carrying an unlicensed handgun, (carrying a handgun without a CHL) illegal knife, or club in an alcohol sale establishment (third degree felony instead of class A misd.). They essentially are a scarier way to say "you might only be committing a misdemeanor out there, but it's a felony in here" and keep people from doing something that they might not otherwise risk. You have to violate 46.02 in the first place for the enhanced penalty to be applicable, so carrying a rifle or the like couldn't trigger it.

You can search every occurrence of the word "firearm" in the ABC code of laws, and every penalty in that code attached to carrying a long gun (with or without a CHL) in a licensed establishment punishes the proprietor, not the carrier. It's a license-revocable thing to "knowingly allow" someone to possess a firearm in a licensed establishment, on or off premises, unless they're a cop, a CHL carrier, the license holder/manager of the facilities, or a few other very limited exceptions... but that incentivizes the management with threats, not the carrier. If you were carrying an AOW/SRB concealed, they wouldn't "knowingly allow," and I can't find anything that actually punishes the carrier if the weapon is legally owned, and I've looked a lot for something that backs up the general "weapons" wording found on the blue sign.

As a second opinion, I might argue that certain AOWs might be considered "handguns" under Texas law, since we define it as a firearm designed to be fired with one hand. A smoothbore pistol or an unconventionally-shaped firearm would probably be handguns, too; a Serbu Shorty or other AOW with a second handgrip, clearly meant to be held with two hands, probably couldn't be.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer. But that's how I read everything.

Clarified the "unlicensed handgun" part for you, REALLY appreciate your informative answer, so maybe an AOW past a blue sign might be OK ...

Wonder if Steve Rothstein will comment, I think he was with TABC, but he may have not been asked this before ... dunno, except I value his opinion a lot in many matters concerning TABC too, you do make an excellent point about 46.02 needing to be violated in the first place
and
Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
DOES NOT APPLY... to an AOW
(doesn't include it as an unlawful CARRYING weapon= handgun, illegal knife, or club)

Now I'm vacillating again ... if I CAN carry a concealed AOW in restaurants/Stop-n-go convenience stores/HEB grocery store with blue signs, maybe I'll get one instead of a 2011-hi-cap 1911 for my next purchase. because restaurants/Stop-n-go convenience stores/HEB grocery store with blue signs was the deal breaker if I couldn't.

"Serbu Shorty or other AOW with a second handgrip, clearly meant to be held with two hands, probably couldn't be (considered a handgun)."
I agree, since second hand is pretty much needed for more than one shot, two hand operation necessary since they are based on PUMP shotguns. (A disadvantage since I actually only HAVE one hand, but I'll figure out how to operate it another way like I had to adapt to manual pencil sharpeners as a kid; however, sadly, to my detriment, my particular situation proves it can be a 1-hand weapon if I CAN operate it single-handedly.) [.400 batting average proves I adapt easily] And I remember going through this with "Switchblades" when younger because of an exception to the prohibition under Federal law for one-handed people, but later broke the springs out and disabled them and kept them a long time as antiques/curios prior to breaking them up and throwing them away.

[KD5NRH]

"Serbu Shorty or other AOW with a second handgrip, clearly meant to be held with two hands, probably couldn't be (considered a handgun)."
I agree, since second hand is pretty much needed for more than one shot, two hand operation necessary since they are based on PUMP shotguns. (A disadvantage since I actually only HAVE one hand, but I'll figure out how to operate it another way like I had to adapt to manual pencil sharpeners as a kid; however, sadly, to my detriment, my particular situation proves it can be a 1-hand weapon if I CAN operate it single-handedly.)

I can operate my Mossberg 835 with a 28" barrel and full stock one handed. It's slow, but I can. Same for my Mosin Nagant. I'm pretty sure nobody would consider them to be "designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand," though.

[srothstein]

well, since you asked RPB, I guess I will comment.

First I wanted to say I don't advise this because anyone who does this is really on the cutting edge of the law. And people on the cutting edge usually end up bleeding.

I agree with most of the comments on the signs pictured. The Serbu Shorty is not a handgun as I understand the definition and the weapon. Not having a shoulder stock makes this fairly questionable and I would point to the old Steve McQueen tv show as the reason why.

But if we assume that the shorty is not a handgun, you can carry them anywhere that a rifle is not banned. This includes ignoring 46.02 totally and they can be carried concealed or openly. Signs for 30.06 do not apply, and neither does 51% signs. The blue TABC signs do not apply since, as noted, they require a violation of 46.02 before they become effective. A 30.05 sign banning concealed guns means you could legally carry the shorty open and ignore the sign. A 30.05 sign banning any guns would stop you from carrying there.

Basically, the shorty would be considered the same as an M-1 Garand under the law. I think we all understand where we can carry a rifle legally, and where it would cause problems even if legal. If the firearm is not a handgun under the law, then consider it the same as the M-1 for carrying purposes, just easier to physically conceal.

[RPB]

well, since you asked RPB, I guess I will comment.

First I wanted to say I don't advise this because anyone who does this is really on the cutting edge of the law. And people on the cutting edge usually end up bleeding.

I agree with most of the comments on the signs pictured. The Serbu Shorty is not a handgun as I understand the definition and the weapon. Not having a shoulder stock makes this fairly questionable and I would point to the old Steve McQueen tv show as the reason why.

But if we assume that the shorty is not a handgun, you can carry them anywhere that a rifle is not banned. This includes ignoring 46.02 totally and they can be carried concealed or openly. Signs for 30.06 do not apply, and neither does 51% signs. The blue TABC signs do not apply since, as noted, they require a violation of 46.02 before they become effective. A 30.05 sign banning concealed guns means you could legally carry the shorty open and ignore the sign. A 30.05 sign banning any guns would stop you from carrying there.

Basically, the shorty would be considered the same as an M-1 Garand under the law. I think we all understand where we can carry a rifle legally, and where it would cause problems even if legal. If the firearm is not a handgun under the law, then consider it the same as the M-1 for carrying purposes, just easier to physically conceal.

Thanks Steve; I was hoping for you or Charles to respond.

I was/am just considering options, if a bunch of signs ever go up later, as a knee-jerk response if Open Carry passes.

I probably won't bother getting the AOW, because I'm never keen on sending in excess Federal paperwork that could be WikiLeaked later, (A college Campus up North may start allowing guns on campus if you add yourself to the list kept by Campus Police, and a student commented "Look for the list on WikiLeaks later" ... probably going with buying a 2011/double stacked 1911 for now.

I had seen this topic come up before, with very sketchy info related to where one actually could and couldn't carry an AOW as it relates to signs, and hoped that the info could be organized in one thread. I think you just did that pretty well for me ... thanks again

[RPB]

Shows how often I drink ... you mentioned 51% signs .. I didn't even think of those because if it isn't in shotglass once a year at communion, I don't consume alcohol, nor go to places where it's served, other than a restaurant or two, and then I just get tea or coffee.

But yeah, it would be ill-advised to walk into a bar open carrying one. (or anywhere probably)

I was thinking more concealed in areas like malls which are 30.06 posted and restaurants.
However, as a practical matter ... concealing a 16.5" overall length ..... is something else unless you'd do off-body carry, and I'm not a big fan of that, but I've heard of a thigh holster, but then I'd need those Velcro stripper pants you could just rip off, and make the bad guy stop because he'd be laughing uncontrollably, so I don't see the point in needing that setup either.

Also, I saw reviews of those shortys, and I'd want to carry rifled slugs since the pattern spreads so fast, to avoid bystander injury.

Still, unless a lot of signs go up, I think I'll just by a 1911 for now, and leave the AOW alone.

just a note, apparently (I'm told) the particular AOWs I showed as examples are a subcatagory of AOW considered a smooth bore pistol, so it's "still a pistol" so... forget all that regarding that particular type gun
There may be other AOWs that would work.

Perhaps an open carried "cane gun" AOW ... I dunno

[Baytown]

There is really not that much paperwork that goes with it if you ever wanted to do it. If for nothing else, it is just fun to have some NFA stuff. (No, the feds can't come search your house without a warrant, etc...) I have often thought about the law in the same way with a machine gun instead of an AOW though. Glock 18 with a forgrip? PAWS Sterling? MP5k?

[PappaGun]

There is really not that much paperwork that goes with it if you ever wanted to do it. If for nothing else, it is just fun to have some NFA stuff. (No, the feds can't come search your house without a warrant, etc...) I have often thought about the law in the same way with a machine gun instead of an AOW though. Glock 18 with a forgrip? PAWS Sterling? MP5k?

I agree!!

Do you know if the exemption for sign-off by the city official that applies to trusts, corporations etc. applies to all weapons or only to NFA and/or AOW?

ETA - To clarify...
Obviously there is no sign off required for handguns, rifles etc., but I am wondering out loud if there is any advantage to purchasing every day firearms through a trust or corporation.