Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

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CleverNickname
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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby CleverNickname » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:58 am

T.Rex Arms Titan

I found this holster the other day, and it interested me because it accomodates guns with slide-mounted red-dots.

Also the name of the company is funny.


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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby The Wall » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:29 am

Nice holsters for sure. I prefer a thumb break holster. Especially with a 1911. I carry cocked and locked so the thumb break gives an added sense of safety by laying between the hammer and firing pin. I know it's not likely for the hammer to ever fall on it's own but it makes me feel better. Blackhawk makes a really nice fitting thumb break holster.


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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby kauboy » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:53 pm

Excaliber wrote:
kauboy wrote:
Excaliber wrote:A
The "level 1" retention holsters linked in the OP are all designed with intuitive levers or buttons that would be depressed during any gun grab attempt. A thumb-break requires the correct grip AND knowledge of how to properly disengage it in order to draw the gun, as it requires an action not required of a normal draw. Disengaging it is not as intuitive as depressing a button that one's finger or thumb would naturally fall on during a draw attempt.
For this reason, if the premise is that OC *could* increase the number of gun grabs (though I doubt there is much evidence supporting this), a thumb-break would be the superior option.
This is likely the reason that most duty holsters use thumb-breaks.


You are correct that there is little history of gun grabs from civilians in Texas. That is largely because open carry won't begin until this coming January. Right now a criminal doesn't know someone is carrying a gun until it is drawn, and he doesn't try to grab what he doesn't know about. However, there is extensive history of gun grabs from the openly carried holsters of law enforcement officers. Prior to the invention of retention holsters, the vast majority of these were from holsters with simple thumb snap retaining devices. I believe this history is worth learning from, because the hard way to learn about this hurts a lot.

I had an opportunity to explore holster retention pretty thoroughly while I was writing the requirements for a 200 officer police department's holster regulations. Level 1 is friction only. A secondary device like a thumb strap or lever is Level 2, and two active devices or actions required to release the gun are level 3 (See Mas Ayoob's description of the level rating system here.)

A thumb break is not only intuitive for the wearer, it is in fact very easy for an observer to analyze and attack. It is even easy to do from the front, and this was proven many times in actual incidents. That method (which I won't describe here) is taught in prisons and is very well known among the criminal element. Our training cadre demonstrated it to every new officer at the range to make sure they were aware of just how easily and quickly it could be done. A thumb break is also easy for an adversary to release during a gun grab from the rear because placing the hand on the grip naturally places the thumb in position to release the thumbstrap. Even without releasing the thumbstrap, a vigorous yank will usually free the gun.

Simple thumb strap holsters are rarely used by uniformed officers in agencies with high levels of contact with suspects because of the danger they represent. You'll see things like hoods, shield, and hidden levers, but rarely thumbstraps except for nonuniformed or administrative personnel and the occasional old timer who's still carrying a revolver. Level 3 (2 active retention devices) was my standard choice for uniformed duty.

The retention mechanisms in the original list are relatively intuitive in that they are placed in positions that are readily activated by the person wearing the holster and both less obvious and more difficult to release by someone else. They are specifically designed to not be obvious, although if an opportunity is given for a close look it will often reveal where they are. However, even if they are correctly identified by an adversary, they are designed to be difficult for anyone but the wearer to actually remove the gun.

I provided the original list and requested folks stick to the retention definition I outlined in order to provide a resource for those who recognize the hazards involved in gun grabs and want equipment that is well designed to make them significantly more difficult. When open carry becomes legal, folks can of course carry holsters with simple thumbstraps for retention. If they choose to do so, I sincerely hope that they make that decision with full knowledge of the drawbacks and that they invest in a good hands on weapon retention course (which is a great investment for anyone) to learn how to defend it.

I'm aware of Texas carry options. My referral to any evidence of gun grabs is not confined to Texas. Other states have allowed it for much longer, and this evidence should be widely available if your supposition is true. Surely this claim is provable. What percentage of civilian OC carriers have had their gun grabbed for in other states. Is this a real threat? It could be, and I'd just like to see those figures.

The list you gave are not friction-only holsters, so now I'm confused on the topic. If you say the topic shoud cover level 1, why provide links to level 2 types(with levers and buttons)?
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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby ELB » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:46 pm

It is not hard to find reports of gun grabs attempted on police officers -- there are lots of police officers, and they have lots of interactions with people who might be inspired to make a grab.

When talking about non-police open carry, you're talking about a very small part of the population at large, or even among the gun carrying population. There are a very few open carriers sprinkled among millions of people, they're a pretty rare bird in the wild, and even rarer in the urban populations. And they're not as a general rule moving in the criminal (as opposed to "political") gun grabber element, nor generally seeking them out.

If open carry were to start achieving the frequency of other items that criminals like to grab, like cell phones, you would see a lot more reports. But as it is now, open carriers are protected from gun grabs by their relative rarity, and there's not much to report.

Frankly, legalized open carry is more of a political touchstone, a cultural indicator, than it is a practical reality.
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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby nightmare69 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:32 pm

Even though it's not a practical OC holster for everyday carry,this is the holster I use on duty. If you're worried about someone disarming you buy this holster.

http://www.safariland.com/retention/mod ... ml#start=1
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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby Excaliber » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:51 pm

ELB wrote:It is not hard to find reports of gun grabs attempted on police officers -- there are lots of police officers, and they have lots of interactions with people who might be inspired to make a grab.

When talking about non-police open carry, you're talking about a very small part of the population at large, or even among the gun carrying population. There are a very few open carriers sprinkled among millions of people, they're a pretty rare bird in the wild, and even rarer in the urban populations. And they're not as a general rule moving in the criminal (as opposed to "political") gun grabber element, nor generally seeking them out.

If open carry were to start achieving the frequency of other items that criminals like to grab, like cell phones, you would see a lot more reports. But as it is now, open carriers are protected from gun grabs by their relative rarity, and there's not much to report.

Frankly, legalized open carry is more of a political touchstone, a cultural indicator, than it is a practical reality.


Your points on the rarity of open carry and its character as a political touchstone rather than a practical reality are well taken.

I don't see criminals setting out to find an open carrier so they can snatch his gun. However, bad guys are resourceful opportunists, and if the opportunity to take one arises in a situation where someone thinks he can get away with it, we'll likely see him try.
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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby Excaliber » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:54 pm

nightmare69 wrote:Even though it's not a practical OC holster for everyday carry,this is the holster I use on duty. If you're worried about someone disarming you buy this holster.

http://www.safariland.com/retention/mod ... ml#start=1


Good choice. I think that's the best one on the market today.
Excaliber

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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby John Galt » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:38 pm

This is why I would rather be concealed, and an element of surprise.


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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby kauboy » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:26 pm

ELB wrote:But as it is now, open carriers are protected from gun grabs by their relative rarity, and there's not much to report.

Agreed. Thought should be given to the idea, but any amount of worry is currently unfounded. This could change.
John Galt wrote:This is why I would rather be concealed, and an element of surprise.

On the reverse, being concealed requires additional manipulation to get the gun ready.
Gun fights are generally over in 3-5 seconds, on average.
Some may prefer to forgo "surprise" in order to be ready faster.
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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby NotRPB » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:55 pm

nightmare69 wrote:Even though it's not a practical OC holster for everyday carry,this is the holster I use on duty. If you're worried about someone disarming you buy this holster.

http://www.safariland.com/retention/mod ... ml#start=1


Thanks
Because of Tsarnaev #Refugees/Boston Marathon Bombers being unable to take the gun from the deceased officer's level 3 holster, I'm considering OC level 3 for one of my "Fancy Pretty Barbeque guns" perhaps even without a chambered round, while having the Glock as a BUG (which I'd draw 1st anyway... because they work, so I guess the ugly Glock will still be my Primary and the OC becomes my BUG, in case of Glock/Mag malfunction.)

Still, rather than duty holster style...I'd rather Pancake/belt slide type level 3, mostly finding level 2 in those.
So, again, thanks !!
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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby tbryanh » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:42 am

Which one(s) work for iwb at the 4 o'clock position?


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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby tbryanh » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:30 am

tbryanh wrote:Which one(s) work for iwb at the 4 o'clock position?

Looks like The Prowler might work.http://www.desantisholster.com/THE-PROWLER


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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby tbryanh » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:33 am

tbryanh wrote:
tbryanh wrote:Which one(s) work for iwb at the 4 o'clock position?

Looks like The Prowler might work.http://www.desantisholster.com/THE-PROWLER

Well, that's for Glocks. Don't see anything for Sigs.


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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby NotRPB » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:06 am

tbryanh wrote:
tbryanh wrote:Which one(s) work for iwb at the 4 o'clock position?

Looks like The Prowler might work.http://www.desantisholster.com/THE-PROWLER

Similar to The Prowler is ...DeSantis Quick Safe Level 3 for Glocks, (Shown on NCIS Las Angeles I think (Looks more comfortable OWB than Prowler to me from pictures)

DeSantis Quick Safe features Level III retention and an ambidextrous design
and CHEAP $25.93 to $29.00
Photos OWB
https://www.google.com/search?q=QUICK+S ... 07&dpr=0.9

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-DSG122KJB2Z0
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/212808 ... 3-36-kydex
I read Customer reviews:
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This is a great Holster. It has modest adjustment for positive and negative cant, but enough to make it comfortable in cross draw application. The Kydex construction is solid, and the level 3 retention is even better than hoped for. It is open ended, which I require, and if you are thinking about purchasing this holster, you won't be disappointed.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/212808 ... viewHeader


I also like Open-ended so I can use extended barrel or Glock 19/26/17 without buying 3 holsters
Now, where'd I put that credit card ...
(I STILL need something for my Stainless Barbeque guns ... but $25.00 price range for OWB OpenCarry Level 3, tough to resist)

Not sure what's out there for Sig yet, but I bet more Companies will offer something very soon if not out there already
Last edited by NotRPB on Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Retention Holsters for Concealed or Open Carry

Postby Excaliber » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:13 am

kauboy wrote:
ELB wrote:But as it is now, open carriers are protected from gun grabs by their relative rarity, and there's not much to report.

Agreed. Thought should be given to the idea, but any amount of worry is currently unfounded. This could change.
John Galt wrote:This is why I would rather be concealed, and an element of surprise.

On the reverse, being concealed requires additional manipulation to get the gun ready.
Gun fights are generally over in 3-5 seconds, on average.
Some may prefer to forgo "surprise" in order to be ready faster.


Yep, and there's also the deterrent value of open vs. concealed carry. There are documented cases where bad guys decided not to go forward with a robbery while an open carrier was present.

There are pluses and minuses to both methods, and either is a reasonable choice.

January is almost here, and there will no doubt be more data coming soon.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.


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