Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

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Bitter Clinger
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby Bitter Clinger » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:18 pm

AJSully421 wrote:Just as nuts and bolts, I have a story.

We have a 6x4 portable hog trap at the ranch. The past two weekends we have had herd of 6 and 7 small (under 50 pounds) hogs in the trap. Two weekends ago, I had my Glock 17 and some FMJ to do some pistol practice with. I took my time and got all 6 with 6 shots. Only one exit, and it was just a bloody hole.

Last weekend, I shot them with my 11.5" supressed AR using M193. It was tearing stuff up good, and a couple had fist sized chunks of guts hanging out the exit hole.

Now, it is not apples and apples with a 4.5" pistol barrel vs. a 11.5" rifle barrel, but I would be willing to bet that same 9mm 115grn moving at 1300 - 1350 would not have done so much damage.

If shooting things to cause damage to them is the goal, rifle rounds are the answer. For plinking or practice, either way.


Let me say it another way (again):

"The faster you go, the bigger the mess" :biggrinjester:
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby The Annoyed Man » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:22 pm

Skiprr wrote:
Bitter Clinger wrote:I think the OP needs one of each so that he can compare side by side :fire

:iagree: Always the one solution with which no one can argue: "Buy 'em all!"

Well there you go. :mrgreen:

FYI, here's how I read the numbers....... On this page, they get 1317 fps with a 115 grain Federal JHP (about half way down the page) out of a Keltec Sub-2000. Using E = (M x V²) ÷ K, where K = 450,435, you get Energy = (115 grains x 1317 squared) / 450,435. That comes to 442.83 ft lbs. So I guess that I misread the data if we're using the federal jhp. But I don't. I use the 115 grain +p Carbon DPX. That has a MV of 1524 fps out of the Keltec. If you plug that into the forumula, you get a muzzle energy of 592.97 ft lbs, or about the same as a .223 55 grain fmj from a 7" pistol barrel. But where I think the pistol bullet has a real advantage, energy differences notwithstanding, is in the terminal ballistics in the target. The pistol bullet is still operating within its design parameters at those velocities. Rifle bullets, whether you're talking about FMJ, BTHP, SP, whatever, are designed to perform at higher velocities to achieve their effect. If they are going too slow, you're just poking holes in someone. Out of a 16" barrel, a .223 or 5.56 is just devastating. I don't have the confidence that it would still be so out of a pistol length barrel.

But hey, if anyone else does have that confidence, by all means get an AR pistol. It's all about what you're comfortable with, right?
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby AJSully421 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:24 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:
AJSully421 wrote:Just as nuts and bolts, I have a story.

We have a 6x4 portable hog trap at the ranch. The past two weekends we have had herd of 6 and 7 small (under 50 pounds) hogs in the trap. Two weekends ago, I had my Glock 17 and some FMJ to do some pistol practice with. I took my time and got all 6 with 6 shots. Only one exit, and it was just a bloody hole.

Last weekend, I shot them with my 11.5" supressed AR using M193. It was tearing stuff up good, and a couple had fist sized chunks of guts hanging out the exit hole.

Now, it is not apples and apples with a 4.5" pistol barrel vs. a 11.5" rifle barrel, but I would be willing to bet that same 9mm 115grn moving at 1300 - 1350 would not have done so much damage.

If shooting things to cause damage to them is the goal, rifle rounds are the answer. For plinking or practice, either way.


Let me say it another way (again):

"The faster you go, the bigger the mess" :biggrinjester:


That applies to more than just bullets!
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby maverick2076 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:37 pm

Scott B. wrote:
dragun wrote:So trying understand the big differences between these two. I'm specifically thinking of the cz scorpion but also want to understand the difference to the AR pistol. Maybe some pros/cons for each would be helpful. Just trying to understand what the main differences are between with these. Also wouldn't mind avoiding all the tax stamp stuff with the sbr but again like to hear the pros\cons.

Application would be an additional HD option and maybe a a problem arises option when traveling (driving around the state). With all the crazies protesting and getting more violent and rioting, probably couldn't hurt having one of these in a backpack and since it's considered a pistol, the ccw laws apply the same I believe.

I remember a pretty good thread from Scott B. I think a while back and he had a pretty sweet scorpion set up and was thinking something similar.

Edit: Question - Do I have to get a tax stamp to get the folding stock for the CZ scorpion?



Are you comparing it against a pistol caliber AR pistol? Or an AR pistol chambered in 223/556/300/whatever?

In the AR format, I'd lean toward a rifle caliber AR versus a pistol caliber version. Your mileage my vary, but I've not been too impressed with the different AR 9mm/40 cal pistol setups. Either the magwells were poorly thought out or the maintainability was horrendous. With regular AR caliber in pistol format, you get a pretty rock solid package.

The Kel-Tec isn't a bad solution as long as the sights stay on straight and you don't put hundreds of rounds through them (opinions vary about that).

Any "pistol" that you put a stock on must have a stamp. No vertical foregrips fwiw on a pistol either.

Pistol caliber Carbine = carbine, aka rifle.


FWIW, I have over 3000 rounds through my KelTec Sub2K, I have had maybe 1-2 FTEs in all that time, and the factory sights have always held zero.

I'm also a big fan of pistol caliber ARs. I've built two, one in 9mm and one in .45. They are both good performers, and once I found the right buffer and spring combo, extremely reliable. The 9mm is a suppressed SBR and is my go to house gun. The .45 is a pistol build, but will eventually get two stamps as well. Both are built on dedicated Glock mag lowers, which solves any mag issues you may have.

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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby Bitter Clinger » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:03 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Skiprr wrote:
Bitter Clinger wrote:I think the OP needs one of each so that he can compare side by side :fire

:iagree: Always the one solution with which no one can argue: "Buy 'em all!"

Well there you go. :mrgreen:

FYI, here's how I read the numbers....... On this page, they get 1317 fps with a 115 grain Federal JHP (about half way down the page) out of a Keltec Sub-2000. Using E = (M x V²) ÷ K, where K = 450,435, you get Energy = (115 grains x 1317 squared) / 450,435. That comes to 442.83 ft lbs. So I guess that I misread the data if we're using the federal jhp. But I don't. I use the 115 grain +p Carbon DPX. That has a MV of 1524 fps out of the Keltec. If you plug that into the forumula, you get a muzzle energy of 592.97 ft lbs, or about the same as a .223 55 grain fmj from a 7" pistol barrel. But where I think the pistol bullet has a real advantage, energy differences notwithstanding, is in the terminal ballistics in the target. The pistol bullet is still operating within its design parameters at those velocities. Rifle bullets, whether you're talking about FMJ, BTHP, SP, whatever, are designed to perform at higher velocities to achieve their effect. If they are going too slow, you're just poking holes in someone. Out of a 16" barrel, a .223 or 5.56 is just devastating. I don't have the confidence that it would still be so out of a pistol length barrel.

But hey, if anyone else does have that confidence, by all means get an AR pistol. It's all about what you're comfortable with, right?


A 5.56 out of. 7.5" bbl will remain supersonic out to about 300 yards. Depending on the ammo you are using, that may well be sufficient.
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby ninjabread » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:06 pm

dragun wrote:Edit: Question - Do I have to get a tax stamp to get the folding stock for the CZ scorpion?

You can get a CZ Scorpion pistol with 8" barrel or a CZ Scorpion carbine with 16" barrel. There's no problem putting a folding stock on a carbine. However, putting a stock on a pistol is making a SBR and we need a note from mommy first or we get a spanking.
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby Bitter Clinger » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:11 pm

Pistol Caliber Carbine Effective At Distance

Haley Strategic shows a pistol caliber SMG can get combat effective hits out to 300 yards. The 300 yard hits are a bit of a stretch but it can be done.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017 ... istance-2/
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby Scott B. » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:56 pm

This is an in-progress project - CZ Scorpion SBR. It's getting a new handguard next week, and a noise abatement device when that arrives.

It just makes me smile. :cool:

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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby LucasMcCain » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:18 pm

Dang it, man. Now I gotta clean drool out of my keyboard. :drool: Be sure to post another pic once you get it all kitted out how you want it.
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Re: Pistol carbine (CZ scorpion) vs AR Pistol

Postby troglodyte » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:25 pm

The effectiveness of a rifle caliber in a short barreled AR pistol may be debatable if we are talking about a 5.56. As alluded to earlier this changes dramatically when you use a caliber that was designed for short barrels. Enter the 300 Blackout. I will readily admit I'm am not an expert on ballistics but I chose the 300 BO for the AR pistol due to the fact that it gives a 7.62x39/30-30 (125-150gr) performance with supersonics or .45 caliber (200-220gr) subsubsonic out of a compact package.

Since the round was designed, super or sub, to burn all the powder in about 9 inches of barrel there is not a huge fireball or blast. Now it is still loud unsuppressed, even subsonics, but it is nothing like a 5.56 out of even a longer barrel. With the proper use of a sling the recoil is not an issue. Even without a sling recoil is not bad. Effective range is said to be out to about 300yds but my intended use is close quarters out to maybe 100 yds if I come across a coyote loping across a field.

With the 300 BO AR pistol you get the compact package of a AR pistol (though the CZ is still smaller), rifle ballistics, and the ability to run subsonics with a suppressor for hearing safe operation. The AR platform has interchangeable and readily available parts. Carried fully assembled (no suppressor) in a Hazard 4 Takedown it is easy to stow behind the truck seat and take back in at the end of the day.
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