On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1

User avatar

Jusme
Senior Member
Posts: 2836
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
Location: Johnson County, Texas

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Jusme » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:11 am

flechero wrote:
Excaliber wrote:
flechero wrote:I'll give the trooper the benefit of the doubt- I bet there are facts not in the written story that could be important.


You're right in that news accounts are never complete and are rarely completely accurate. Articles based on initial reports are usually less complete and less accurate than the original. However, with that said, there are lessons to be learned here. The first is that even a highly trained individual can be much more easily successfully attacked outside than inside.

Coming up with the best response is not as simple as it might first appear. As some have pointed out, a farm family faced with an adversary who is stealing livestock or critical equipment in an area where law enforcement response won't get there in time to make a difference is in a very different situation than a suburban homeowner who hears noises outside.

Letting the dogs out from a door away from the intruder's suspected location is a viable tactic that should quickly reveal if there is a problem out there or not and where it is likely to be. They also give an intruder a problem he didn't have before and may inspire him to find another place to be. If things work out this way, it neatly resolves the problem and you simply owe your faithful companions some treats.

If a decision to go outside is made, thought needs to be given to how and where to exit the home. Out of sight, quietly, and well away from the intruder's suspected location is much preferred. Planning needs to include how you will search for the adversary without making a target out of yourself with a flashlight. Keep in mind that there may be multiple adversaries, they may be in different locations, and their night vision will be keen while yours will likely be poor if you have been in a lighted area of the home just before your exit.

Your plan needs to include how those left inside will be protected while you are outside, what you will do if you do encounter the adversary, how you will communicate with persons still inside the home and law enforcement, and what those inside the home will do if you are engaged and downed by the adversary (good guys don't always win).

When you think all this through, staying inside starts to look like a really good idea even for highly trained folks except in the most extreme circumstances.


I don't disagree with you. My point was that a "highly trained" individual would know better than us what the risks are... which is why I think there is probably more to the story.



:iagree:

Along with the fact that, with no more info than has been provided, our thoughts and opinions are not much more than conjecture.
Highly trained individuals, are not immune from complacency, and had he been on duty, and performing normal patrol/enforcement activities, his SA would have been heightened, the fact that he put on body armor, gives the indication that he believed there to at least be a potential threat, but he may have believed, that he held the upper hand since it was his home, and he believed himself to be more familiar with the surroundings.
Putting dogs out may not have been an option if he was not a dog owner,
Most DPS troopers, that I know, take their cars home with them, I don't know if that was the case in this instance, but if so, an intruder, must have been pretty brave in the first place, so attacking a known LEO, would have, for most criminal, not been a wise move. Again, this is all conjecture.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:


Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:34 am

If I hear noises outside, my plan is to open the bedside safe, hand my wife the revolver, and tell her to go into the closet and call 911. I will then grab the SA, head carefully up the stairs, get the kids all in one room, and then lay down and cover the top of the stairs. Not ideal, but the best I could come up with given the layout of my house.

But this guy is a LEO. He is one of the guys and gals who will be responding to my wife's 911 call to investigate the outside of our home. And, unlike me, he has a sworn responsibility to put BG's in jail. So I can completely understand why he might have decided to go outside.
Ding dong, the witch is dead

User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts: 11203
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby C-dub » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:55 am

I would strongly caution against sending your dog(s) outside into the unknown. My two GSDs used to be highly trained to handle stuff like that. They were not police dogs, but it could be argued that in some ways their training was as good or better in various aspects. They were trained to defend under gunfire from a gun with blanks being fired at them as they went for the bite and while biting. They were hit and kicked with sticks and other objects while fighting with the BG and did not give up. My dogs are older know, but even in their prime I would not send them into the unknown. Even the police won't do that most of the time, but sometimes there are no other options.

Unless my dog(s) were already engaged with the BG I wouldn't send them out without me also going as back up or for them to distract the BG so I could take care of him/them. Our dogs are a part of our family and I wouldn't willingly sacrifice them because they won't quit and will fight until they are physically unable.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.

User avatar

carlson1
Moderator
Posts: 8539
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:11 am

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby carlson1 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:26 pm

This is one of those things I have done and will never do again. Several years ago while studying during the night I heard my
F-250 diesel engine turn over and seen the head lights flash in our den window. I grabbed my gun ran outside and there was a young hispanic male behind the wheel. I immediately pointed my pistol and yelled.

He ended up getting away and the police could not find him. He had tore up the steering column and other than that no damage.

When it was over I had a lot thoughts rush threw my mind. Would that young man end up being just a teenager? Could there have been multiple suspects outside and did I have tunnel vision on the thief?

I have sinced added outside cameras and outside lights. I will not go outsiide again I will just be a good witness for the police.
Image

User avatar

Topic author
Excaliber
Moderator
Posts: 5368
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 9:59 pm
Location: DFW Metro

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Excaliber » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:50 pm

C-dub wrote:I would strongly caution against sending your dog(s) outside into the unknown. My two GSDs used to be highly trained to handle stuff like that. They were not police dogs, but it could be argued that in some ways their training was as good or better in various aspects. They were trained to defend under gunfire from a gun with blanks being fired at them as they went for the bite and while biting. They were hit and kicked with sticks and other objects while fighting with the BG and did not give up. My dogs are older know, but even in their prime I would not send them into the unknown. Even the police won't do that most of the time, but sometimes there are no other options.

Unless my dog(s) were already engaged with the BG I wouldn't send them out without me also going as back up or for them to distract the BG so I could take care of him/them. Our dogs are a part of our family and I wouldn't willingly sacrifice them because they won't quit and will fight until they are physically unable.


Although letting dogs out is a viable tactic for locating an intruder, it does pose a very high risk to the dogs. This could become the least worst option when the alternative is very high risk to people, but with family pets I agree it is a tactic to be avoided except as a last resort.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.

User avatar

Topic author
Excaliber
Moderator
Posts: 5368
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 9:59 pm
Location: DFW Metro

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Excaliber » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:50 pm

Excaliber wrote:
C-dub wrote:I would strongly caution against sending your dog(s) outside into the unknown. My two GSDs used to be highly trained to handle stuff like that. They were not police dogs, but it could be argued that in some ways their training was as good or better in various aspects. They were trained to defend under gunfire from a gun with blanks being fired at them as they went for the bite and while biting. They were hit and kicked with sticks and other objects while fighting with the BG and did not give up. My dogs are older know, but even in their prime I would not send them into the unknown. Even the police won't do that most of the time, but sometimes there are no other options.

Unless my dog(s) were already engaged with the BG I wouldn't send them out without me also going as back up or for them to distract the BG so I could take care of him/them. Our dogs are a part of our family and I wouldn't willingly sacrifice them because they won't quit and will fight until they are physically unable.




Although letting dogs out is a viable tactic for locating an intruder, as C-dub points out, it does pose a very high risk to the dogs. This could become the least worst option when the alternative is very high risk to people, but with family pets I agree it is a tactic to be avoided except as a last resort
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.

User avatar

Jago668
Senior Member
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun May 03, 2015 12:31 am

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Jago668 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:18 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:If I hear noises outside, my plan is to open the bedside safe, hand my wife the revolver, and tell her to go into the closet and call 911. I will then grab the SA, head carefully up the stairs, get the kids all in one room, and then lay down and cover the top of the stairs. Not ideal, but the best I could come up with given the layout of my house.


Just out of curiosity why not have your wife go with you to get the kids? Ideally I would want everyone together. So I know you have your reasons for doing it, just curious what they are.
NRA Patron Member


Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:01 pm

Jago668 wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:If I hear noises outside, my plan is to open the bedside safe, hand my wife the revolver, and tell her to go into the closet and call 911. I will then grab the SA, head carefully up the stairs, get the kids all in one room, and then lay down and cover the top of the stairs. Not ideal, but the best I could come up with given the layout of my house.


Just out of curiosity why not have your wife go with you to get the kids? Ideally I would want everyone together. So I know you have your reasons for doing it, just curious what they are.


Part of it is specific to the individual, and part of it is related to the situation. Here is my thinking.

First, my wife dislikes guns. She has been to the range with me a couple times in our 8 years together, but basically refuses to go again. That said, she actually is a decent shot, and I fully trust her to be able to hit an intruder coming through the closet door while she is sitting in the back corner (master bedroom closet that is about 10 feet deep and 5 feet wide). I would actually rather get her a shotgun for this task, but I would want her to go to the range first. I know that she can manipulate a loaded revolver, even under stress. In other words, I am confident that she will be fine where she is at, and would rather have her there than worry about exactly where she is if I happen to encounter a BG (or have her trying to shoot at a BG with me in between them).

Second, I want her to immediately relay the most critical info to the 911 operator (need police at XYZ address). I realize that we are not talking about much of a delay here, but that extra minute or two could be critical.

Like I said, not ideal. Our last house was smaller, one story, and had a single hallway leading from the living area (and all doors) back to all the bedrooms. That one was much easier to cover and also easily get everyone into the master bedroom.
Ding dong, the witch is dead

User avatar

bblhd672
Senior Member
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:43 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby bblhd672 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:If I hear noises outside, my plan is to open the bedside safe, hand my wife the revolver, and tell her to go into the closet and call 911. I will then grab the SA, head carefully up the stairs, get the kids all in one room, and then lay down and cover the top of the stairs. Not ideal, but the best I could come up with given the layout of my house.


My wife: "Like heck you're leaving me downstairs by myself!"
NRA Life Member, TSRA Member
“Take away the undeserved from the undeserving and you get a tantrum. Steal the earned from those who earned it and you get righteous rage. One’s a firecracker, the other a volcano.” - Robert Gore


crazy2medic
Senior Member
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:59 am

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby crazy2medic » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:06 pm

I would never let my dogs out without me backing them up in a armed manner, my dogs as others have stated are part of the family, but a dogs sense of smell and night vision is a definite advantage, they would locate an intruder first, wether they attacked or simply stood there and barked and growled would be a distraction from whatever nefarious business the intruder had in mind, if said intruder chose to pull a knife or a gun, now we are talking deadly force and deadly force would be applied from my side of the equation. If said intruder managed to get away with a couple of dog bites, they would very likely seek medical attention, dogs bites are a required reporting incident by law, let the BG explain how he got bit!
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts: 21988
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: Grapevine, Texas

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby The Annoyed Man » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:31 pm

crazy2medic wrote:If said intruder managed to get away with a couple of dog bites, they would very likely seek medical attention, dogs bites are a required reporting incident by law, let the BG explain how he got bit!

And his BFF would back him up and say that it was his dog that bit him, while the perp and his friend were playing on the friend's backyard swing set.
"Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself."—Hookalakah Meshobbab
"I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes."—The Annoyed Boy
"Id aegre et in omnibus semper."—Quod Homo Aegre

User avatar

Topic author
Excaliber
Moderator
Posts: 5368
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 9:59 pm
Location: DFW Metro

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Excaliber » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:13 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
crazy2medic wrote:If said intruder managed to get away with a couple of dog bites, they would very likely seek medical attention, dogs bites are a required reporting incident by law, let the BG explain how he got bit!

And his BFF would back him up and say that it was his dog that bit him, while the perp and his friend were playing on the friend's backyard swing set.


Asking responding LEO's to take a swab of the perp's blood from the area of the encounter right after the incident would provide DNA evidence that would require some novel and likely entertaining explanations when defense counsel tries to reconcile it with the friend's dog story.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.


WTR
Senior Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby WTR » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:26 pm

Excaliber wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
crazy2medic wrote:If said intruder managed to get away with a couple of dog bites, they would very likely seek medical attention, dogs bites are a required reporting incident by law, let the BG explain how he got bit!

And his BFF would back him up and say that it was his dog that bit him, while the perp and his friend were playing on the friend's backyard swing set.


Asking responding LEO's to take a swab of the perp's blood from the area of the encounter right after the incident would provide DNA evidence that would require some novel and likely entertaining explanations when defense counsel tries to reconcile it with the friend's dog story.


You assume the PD would be willing to run a DNA sample in such a case. Some cities have a 10 year backlog for DNA testing of rape cases, so I doubt a dog bite would be a priority.

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts: 21988
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: Grapevine, Texas

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby The Annoyed Man » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:57 pm

WTR wrote:
Excaliber wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
crazy2medic wrote:If said intruder managed to get away with a couple of dog bites, they would very likely seek medical attention, dogs bites are a required reporting incident by law, let the BG explain how he got bit!

And his BFF would back him up and say that it was his dog that bit him, while the perp and his friend were playing on the friend's backyard swing set.

Asking responding LEO's to take a swab of the perp's blood from the area of the encounter right after the incident would provide DNA evidence that would require some novel and likely entertaining explanations when defense counsel tries to reconcile it with the friend's dog story.

You assume the PD would be willing to run a DNA sample in such a case. Some cities have a 10 year backlog for DNA testing of rape cases, so I doubt a dog bite would be a priority.

Also, dog bites don't always bleed that profusely. Dog bites may exhibit puncture wounds and lacerations, but they are also crushing injuries. In crushing injuries with penetrating trauma, little tiny capillaries in the tissues are crushed, but they seep, rather than pour blood, and so unless major vessels are affected, clotting can take place before too much blood leaves the body. It is conceivable that there would be no blood evidence at the scene from which to get DNA, because it was soaked into his clothing, but didn't drip onto the ground, or whatever.
"Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself."—Hookalakah Meshobbab
"I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes."—The Annoyed Boy
"Id aegre et in omnibus semper."—Quod Homo Aegre

User avatar

Lambda Force
Senior Member
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: On Going Outside to Investigate Noises

Postby Lambda Force » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:55 pm

For some people dogs are family members.

For others they're employees with job duties that include security.


Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: robwoz and 13 guests