Mossberg Shockwave

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LucasMcCain
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby LucasMcCain » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:36 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I sent an inquiry to the Texas OAG yesterday and a response was sitting in my inbox this morning. They confirmed that they have not issued any rulings on whether this firearm is a "shotgun" and/or whether it is illegal under Texas law. This will be a decision to be made at the prosecutorial level.


So am I interpreting this wrong or is that as stupid as it sounds? "Buy one, carry it around, get arrested for doing so, and then see what the courts decide on whether it's legal or not." Is that really what they're saying?
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Medley86
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Medley86 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:51 am

By the (lack of) definition for a rifle and shotgun in Texas, there could be other firearms which could be illegal by the same means as a shockwave. An ar pistol is a pistol by federal definition, is there a definition in Texas law for a pistol? Could an especially aggressive DA prosecute for possession of a SBR since it fired rifle caliber rounds and looks like a short rifle, even though federal law says it's a pistol? If you base it only on the round fired and there is no definition of pistol, rifle, or shotgun, a Taurus judge which is definitely a pistol could be classified as a shotgun because it fires a 410 shotgun shell. I say all this not to try to make those guns illegal, more to point out how ambiguity in the law can be ran with and common sense left by the wayside.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:59 am

LucasMcCain wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:I sent an inquiry to the Texas OAG yesterday and a response was sitting in my inbox this morning. They confirmed that they have not issued any rulings on whether this firearm is a "shotgun" and/or whether it is illegal under Texas law. This will be a decision to be made at the prosecutorial level.


So am I interpreting this wrong or is that as stupid as it sounds? "Buy one, carry it around, get arrested for doing so, and then see what the courts decide on whether it's legal or not." Is that really what they're saying?


I think they are saying that the law is unclear, since "shotgun" and therefore "short barrel shotgun" are not defined in the law, despite the latter being illegal without a stamp. And they are also saying that it is not up to Texas AG to make up definitions for things that are undefined in the law. So yes, it would be up to a jury to decide what this term means, and whether Texas should be more restrictive than the federal government in making this decision.

I would love to see us take a page out of the liberals play book and file a case in a gun friendly jurisdiction so we can get some precedent on our side. If it works for the libs in filing all their challenges out in the 9th circuit, is there a way that we could do the same thing here? Specifically, is there a way to get a ruling on this without first being charged and running the risk of a felony conviction for someone?
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:04 pm

Here is my inquiry:

I was informed by a gun retailer today that a certain firearm has been determined to be illegal in the state of Texas. It is the Mossberg Shockwave, which has been determined by the ATF to be a legal, non-NFA, firearm under federal law. I believe that some people have claimed that this firearm is a short-barreled shotgun, which would, of course, make it illegal under federal (and Texas) law. However, the ATF based it's decision on this question on the fact that this firearm is manufactured with no shoulder stock, and therefore does not meet the definition of a shotgun (since that definition refers to a weapon intended to be shouldered). Texas law does not define the term "shotgun", even though it does state that a "short barreled shotgun" is illegal. Can you please tell me if anyone from your office has decided that this firearm meets the (non-existent) definition of a shotgun in Texas law, even though it has been ruled to not meet the federal law definition of that term? Also, can you please tell me whether your office has issued any opinions as to the legality of possessing this firearm in the state of Texas? Thank you in advance for your consideration.


and the response:

Mr. Soccerdad, my name is Captain Gregory Lucas, I am the Law Enforcement Liaison for the Office of the Attorney General (OAG), your complaint was forwarded to me for review. I am not aware of an OAG Opinion issued regarding this weapon, you can search for previously issued Opinions on the website at https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/opinio ... s-orls-etc. This protocol and list of authorized requestors for an OAG Opinion can also be found on the website at https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/opinio ... al-opinion. The interpretation of the definition of weapons found in the Texas Penal Code Chapter 46.01, definitions of weapons, would be the responsibility of the prosecutor with jurisdiction where the alleged offense occurred. Please let me know if you have any further questions.



Captain Gregory Lucas

Law Enforcement Liaison

Office of the Attorney General

Criminal Investigation Division

Office 512-936-1335

Cell 512-652-8426

Fax 512-370-9948
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Jusme
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Jusme » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:05 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Jusme wrote:
aaangel wrote:texas and ohio only?????? just got off the phone with TJ from buds. he has no explanation also. and yes i cancelled my order :cryin



This is not a new law in Texas. As I posted earlier, despite what Mossberg, and even the BATFE, say, Texas has it's definition of a legal shotgun, that has been on the books since the 30s. Unless the Legislature revises it's definition, any "shotgun" with a barrel shorter than 18" will be illegal here.
The law was written after the Miller decision, and has not been changed. Tell only way it will be legal, here, is if Texas changes its definition, or the BATFE, requires them to be registered as NFA firearms.


Can you point me to the definition of the term "shotgun" in Texas law? Everything I have read says that there is no definition for that term in Texas law. I would love to see Texas actually add a definition for a "shotgun". Anything resembling the common definition of a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder should clear this up real quick.

I sent an inquiry to the Texas OAG yesterday and a response was sitting in my inbox this morning. They confirmed that they have not issued any rulings on whether this firearm is a "shotgun" and/or whether it is illegal under Texas law. This will be a decision to be made at the prosecutorial level. They also told me that I am not the first person who has inquired about this firearm. And yes, they specifically used the term firearm, not shotgun.



All I know, is that if a case came to trial, and the prosecution laid out three Mossberg "firearms" one with a 28" barrel, one with a 18.5" barrel and pistol grip, and the Shockwave, and demonstrated how they all loaded the same way, had identical actions, fired the exact same ammo (either shotshells or shotgun slugs) and asked 12 jury members to render their verdict, on whether or not, under Texas law, the Shockwave was a prohibited weapon, I don't think there would be many who disagreed with the fact that it is a short barreled firearm, not requiring an NFA stamp, and not of the correct barrel length, and overall length, and therefore illegal under Texas law.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the whole, barrel length, shotgun definition, BATFE regulations, NFA stamp, issues are just more government interference than is necessary. I wish you luck on getting an opinion, but I wouldn't count on many changes very soon. JMHO
Last edited by Jusme on Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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anygunanywhere
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby anygunanywhere » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:32 pm

If something is not defined statutorily as illegal, is not the thing legal?
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:33 pm

Jusme wrote: All I know, is that if a case came to trial, and the prosecution laid out three Mossberg "firearms" one with a 28" barrel, one with a 18.5" barrel and pistol grip, and the Shockwave, and demonstrated how they all loaded the same way, had identical actions, fired the exact same ammo (either shotshells or shotgun slugs) and asked 12 jury members to render their verdict, on whether or not, under Texas law, the Shockwave was a prohibited weapon, I don't think there would be many who disagreed with the fact that it is a short barreled firearm, not requiring an NFA stamp, and not of the correct barrel length, and overall length, and therefore illegal under Texas law.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the whole, barrel length, shotgun definition, BATFE regulations, NFA stamp, issues are just more government interference than is necessary. I wish you luck on getting an opinion, but I wouldn't count on many changes very soon. JMHO


Most of my family members think my 18.5 inch shotgun with a pistol grip is illegal. So if there were 12 random people on this jury and no one gave them any legal definition of a short barreled shotgun, then most of them would likely say that both the 18.5 inch gun and the Shockwave were illegal.

But in the real world, the jury would be told that there is no definition of a shotgun in Texas law, the federal definition includes a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder, and that the relevant federal agency has determined that this firearm does not meet that definition. This assumes that the defense attorney actually graduated law school. In this situation, I am guessing that at least one of those 12 jurors would be adamant that this firearm is not a shotgun, short barreled or otherwise.
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ninjabread
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby ninjabread » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:34 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:If something is not defined statutorily as illegal, is not the thing legal?

Yes and a jury is the trier of facts.
This is my opinion. There are many like it, but this one is mine.


Soccerdad1995
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:36 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:If something is not defined statutorily as illegal, is not the thing legal?


Apparently it depends on whether it looks like it could possibly be something else that is illegal. Be careful driving your car, which might look like a tank.....
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anygunanywhere
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby anygunanywhere » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:04 pm

ninjabread wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:If something is not defined statutorily as illegal, is not the thing legal?

Yes and a jury is the trier of facts.


Since it isn't statutorily illegal then I fail to see what the issue is.
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ninjabread
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby ninjabread » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:12 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:Since it isn't statutorily illegal then I fail to see what the issue is.

Go for it. I'd much rather read a range report than people frothing at the mouth over tanks and brooms. :cheers2:
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dlh
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby dlh » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:02 pm

This is all quite interesting.

The problem with the Penal Code Section 46.01 definition of "short-barreled firearm" is that it does not define what a "shotgun" is---it simply says "shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches.." If the Shockwave is not a "shotgun" then problem solved. Course, if it walks like a duck...well, let's not go there.

Would be nice to get the OAG to give us an opinion on this one even though those opinions are not binding on courts.

I do not agree that prosecutors get to define legal terms. Legal terms are ultimately defined or interpreted by the courts, not prosecutors.

However, I do not know of anybody in this forum who wants to be a "test case" and put themselves in the hands of the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals for an ultimate resolution of the problem.

Texas is a gun-friendly state and I would like to see the Texas Legislature help solve the problem with a clearer definition of "shotgun."

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tbrown
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby tbrown » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:21 pm

dlh wrote:Texas is a gun-friendly state

You could have fooled me this legislative session.
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AJSully421
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby AJSully421 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:29 pm

I paid the $200 to get a SBS. The 12.5" barrel is nice, but not worth it.

Get an 18" barrel, a mag tube length to match, and lots of ammo.
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RogueUSMC
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby RogueUSMC » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:24 am

http://www.serbu.com/super-shorty-aow-shotgun-12-gauge.html



This is one that came out a while back and it requires a $20 'other' stamp from ATF...
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