Mossberg Shockwave

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hovercat
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby hovercat » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:24 am

Mossburg could have placed a rifled slug barrel on it. The controversy is their advertising.

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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Pawpaw » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:03 am

Clint Smith's take on the Shockwave.

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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Bitter Clinger » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:49 am

Pawpaw wrote:Clint Smith's take on the Shockwave.




Great post Pawpaw, thanks! Very informative! I will be happy to keep my NFA legal 14" bbl SBS Remington 1100 including a complete stock!
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby tbrown » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:08 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I am simply pointing out that if we are worried about juries assigning random definitions that conflict with other legal definitions of this term, then we should be worried about a lot of things being potentially defined as "shotguns".

Try this:
Take pictures of a Mossberg Shockwave, a Ford Mustang, a Glock 17, and a broom.
Print them all the same size (3"x5" is good) on the same piece of paper.
Ask 25 rangom people to identify the 4 items. No coaching!

Then ask 5 random cops the same question with no coaching.
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby AdioSS » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:03 am

You can buy the Shockwave birdshead grip by itself. If you were to place that only a Pistol Grip Only 5+1 Mossberg 500 then the overall length from the end of the grip to the end of the magazine tube is nearly 27 inches. And that is before you screw a barrel onto it. A email to Mossberg with the serial number & a couple pictures attached will verify whether or not the firearm was sold with a stock. :thumbs2: :coolgleamA:


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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:27 am

tbrown wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:I am simply pointing out that if we are worried about juries assigning random definitions that conflict with other legal definitions of this term, then we should be worried about a lot of things being potentially defined as "shotguns".

Try this:
Take pictures of a Mossberg Shockwave, a Ford Mustang, a Glock 17, and a broom.
Print them all the same size (3"x5" is good) on the same piece of paper.
Ask 25 rangom people to identify the 4 items. No coaching!

Then ask 5 random cops the same question with no coaching.


I'm going to guess that of the 25 random people, about half have only seen a shotgun with a shoulder stock, and likely only in the movies / TV, so they likely would not say that the Shockwave is a shotgun. Especially if they had no coaching. With no coaching, the majority would probably say it's a "gun". That is the layman's term for a firearm, so they would be correct. And as a "firearm" that is not specifically a shotgun, it is legal.

The same number will say that the Glock 17 is a "gun". Others will say "handgun". You will be lucky to get 1 who says "Glock 17" unless the picture shows the model number.

About half are going to say the Mustang is a "car".

Not sure about the broom. Depends how many young guys you have in the sample.

As far as the 5 cops. I'll guess that 1-2 may incorrectly identify the Shockwave as a shotgun. Most of them will correctly say they can't tell and may ask if it has a rifled barrel. They will probably do better than the random sample on the Mustang and especially the Glock 17. Not sure about the broom.

If you show 25 random people a picture of a Morgan Silver Dollar, how many are going to correctly identify it (and not just say it's a "coin") with no coaching? You are asking a similar question here.
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:47 pm

I just got off the phone with Buds regarding my reserve order for this firearm. They are saying that they just got word that these firearms are not legal in the state of Texas, so they needed to cancel my order. Unfortunately, she was not able too give me any details.

Has anyone else heard about this? I am guessing that Texas law must have been amended to define the term "shotgun" unless someone is claiming that these are short barreled rifles. Did I miss a new law on this, or is it possible that the AG just amended the law on their own? If so, where I can find the new Texas legal definition for a "shotgun"?

Or is Buds just coming up with a convenient excuse for why they can't fulfill the reserve order?
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby tx85 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:04 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I just got off the phone with Buds regarding my reserve order for this firearm. They are saying that they just got word that these firearms are not legal in the state of Texas, so they needed to cancel my order. Unfortunately, she was not able too give me any details


Here's what T.L.S. wrote back in January:

The problem under Texas law is that “shotgun” is not a defined term in the penal code, but “short-barrel firearm” is. Texas Penal Code Section 46.01(10) defines a short-barrel firearm as a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

At first glance, there doesn’t seem to be a difference from the way the federal law classifies these weapons, however without having a clear definition of a shotgun, we cannot determine whether or not the Shockwave is excluded from what Texas courts would consider a short-barrel firearm. In the absence of language in the Texas Penal Code similar to “intended to be fired from the shoulder,” can having a pistol grip instead of a shoulder stock automatically create a firearm that is not a shotgun?


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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:06 pm

tx85 wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:I just got off the phone with Buds regarding my reserve order for this firearm. They are saying that they just got word that these firearms are not legal in the state of Texas, so they needed to cancel my order. Unfortunately, she was not able too give me any details


Here's what T.L.S. wrote back in January:

The problem under Texas law is that “shotgun” is not a defined term in the penal code, but “short-barrel firearm” is. Texas Penal Code Section 46.01(10) defines a short-barrel firearm as a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

At first glance, there doesn’t seem to be a difference from the way the federal law classifies these weapons, however without having a clear definition of a shotgun, we cannot determine whether or not the Shockwave is excluded from what Texas courts would consider a short-barrel firearm. In the absence of language in the Texas Penal Code similar to “intended to be fired from the shoulder,” can having a pistol grip instead of a shoulder stock automatically create a firearm that is not a shotgun?


Yes, I have read that opinion, but my order was placed in early March. Buds is saying that they just got new info on this.
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby carlson1 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:07 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I just got off the phone with Buds regarding my reserve order for this firearm. They are saying that they just got word that these firearms are not legal in the state of Texas, so they needed to cancel my order. Unfortunately, she was not able too give me any details.

Has anyone else heard about this? I am guessing that Texas law must have been amended to define the term "shotgun" unless someone is claiming that these are short barreled rifles. Did I miss a new law on this, or is it possible that the AG just amended the law on their own? If so, where I can find the new Texas legal definition for a "shotgun"?

Or is Buds just coming up with a convenient excuse for why they can't fulfill the reserve order?


I spoke with Bud's earlier and she didn't mention Texas. She told me they were trying to get an answer from BATF because FFL dealers were sending them back and it was costing them shipping. FFL's thought they were NFA items. They were placing all orders on hold until further notice so I told her to credit my card.
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby aaangel » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:55 pm

texas and ohio only?????? just got off the phone with TJ from buds. he has no explanation also. and yes i cancelled my order :cryin
'got to Texas ASAIC.


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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:00 pm

aaangel wrote:texas and ohio only?????? just got off the phone with TJ from buds. he has no explanation also. and yes i cancelled my order :cryin


Yes, it sounds like Texas might be joining the list of places where you need to order state compliant firearms. Nice to know that we are in the company of California and Massachusetts on this. Maybe Mossberg can make a "Texas compliant" version with a longer barrel.
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Kadelic » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:16 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I just got off the phone with Buds regarding my reserve order for this firearm. They are saying that they just got word that these firearms are not legal in the state of Texas, so they needed to cancel my order. Unfortunately, she was not able too give me any details.

Has anyone else heard about this?


I got an email and spoke to someone at Bud's this afternoon as well. I had made the reserve order 0n 3/27 before reading about the questionable legality of the Shockwave 590. In a way, I'm a bit relieved it happened this way. I had ben contemplating cancelling my order but didn't want to pay the 10% fee. At least this way I'm getting a full refund and won't be sweating the felony thing. Still, it's a shame that it came to this, in Texas of all places. I mean, if it's legal with a tax stamp, but the ATF says you don't need a tax stamp, then it should be good to go, right? :banghead:

I already have a Shockwave Raptor grip on my 18.5" Mossberg 500 and I was planning on putting a stock back on that, so I am disappointed. Now I'm trying to decide if I just take the refund on my credit card and call it good or turn around and spend the money on something else. After all, it was already spent money, right? :cool:
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Jusme » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:00 pm

aaangel wrote:texas and ohio only?????? just got off the phone with TJ from buds. he has no explanation also. and yes i cancelled my order :cryin



This is not a new law in Texas. As I posted earlier, despite what Mossberg, and even the BATFE, say, Texas has it's definition of a legal shotgun, that has been on the books since the 30s. Unless the Legislature revises it's definition, any "shotgun" with a barrel shorter than 18" will be illegal here.
The law was written after the Miller decision, and has not been changed. Tell only way it will be legal, here, is if Texas changes its definition, or the BATFE, requires them to be registered as NFA firearms.
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Re: Mossberg Shockwave

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:19 am

Jusme wrote:
aaangel wrote:texas and ohio only?????? just got off the phone with TJ from buds. he has no explanation also. and yes i cancelled my order :cryin



This is not a new law in Texas. As I posted earlier, despite what Mossberg, and even the BATFE, say, Texas has it's definition of a legal shotgun, that has been on the books since the 30s. Unless the Legislature revises it's definition, any "shotgun" with a barrel shorter than 18" will be illegal here.
The law was written after the Miller decision, and has not been changed. Tell only way it will be legal, here, is if Texas changes its definition, or the BATFE, requires them to be registered as NFA firearms.


Can you point me to the definition of the term "shotgun" in Texas law? Everything I have read says that there is no definition for that term in Texas law. I would love to see Texas actually add a definition for a "shotgun". Anything resembling the common definition of a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder should clear this up real quick.

I sent an inquiry to the Texas OAG yesterday and a response was sitting in my inbox this morning. They confirmed that they have not issued any rulings on whether this firearm is a "shotgun" and/or whether it is illegal under Texas law. This will be a decision to be made at the prosecutorial level. They also told me that I am not the first person who has inquired about this firearm. And yes, they specifically used the term firearm, not shotgun.
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