Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

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Scott B.
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby Scott B. » Sun May 07, 2017 8:13 pm

CoffeeNut wrote:
Scott B. wrote:This is a good subject. The way we teach is it is, "Tap - Rack - Assess." Why? Let's say you're in a gun fight and while clearing your hypothetical malfunction the 'bad guy' -- so overwhelmed by your guns skills -- surrenders? But you follow up with "Bang" because that's the way you always practiced it?

Something to think about. :fire


I'd hope that most people wouldn't run a malfunction drill and immediately open fire again without making the split-second determination to see if they still have a valid target in their sights. Adrenaline does really weird things to people though...

Out of curiosity how would you practice this on a range?


In instructor led practice, the instructor will call out 'threat' or not. Good teaching moment when somebody goes to bang out of habit. Practicing on your own, you make the call.

Back to the original question, what to practice for malfunctions - both? Correctly analyzing the failure is key, so take a look. For most, tap-rack will solve. If it's a double feed, work that problem.

You can set up and simulate them, but if you really want practice - go compete. It's bound to happen when you're having a great match. :mrgreen:
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flechero
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby flechero » Sun May 07, 2017 8:14 pm

Crash wrote:OlBill,
However, I've owned 12 semi-autos and fired quite a few others and most of the FTF I've had were because my gun didn't "like" a particular type of ammo. Not that the ammo was bad, it just wasn't compatible with the gun I was using. Also, I had a number of failures with two different .380s because of faulty factory magazines.

Crash


You could what if it to death... but for 98% of the situations T, R, B is correct.

You should have vetted carry ammo and mags long before carrying it... but in those cases the second factory mag with the 5-6 more rounds of the same factory ammo wouldn't fix the issue either so the initial tap, rack, bang would be much faster to hope for a next round miracle.

More simply put: If you are carrying faulty mags with ammo thats not compatible, then you are screwed from the get go and the lack of proving your carry gear is what killed you.


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Crash
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby Crash » Sun May 07, 2017 11:23 pm

flechero wrote:
Crash wrote:OlBill,
However, I've owned 12 semi-autos and fired quite a few others and most of the FTF I've had were because my gun didn't "like" a particular type of ammo. Not that the ammo was bad, it just wasn't compatible with the gun I was using. Also, I had a number of failures with two different .380s because of faulty factory magazines.

Crash


You could what if it to death... but for 98% of the situations T, R, B is correct.

You should have vetted carry ammo and mags long before carrying it... but in those cases the second factory mag with the 5-6 more rounds of the same factory ammo wouldn't fix the issue either so the initial tap, rack, bang would be much faster to hope for a next round miracle.

More simply put: If you are carrying faulty mags with ammo thats not compatible, then you are screwed from the get go and the lack of proving your carry gear is what killed you.


OlBill,

"You should have vetted carry ammo and mags long before carrying it..."? I check every round I put in a magazine and always have. However, I've had the same round that always worked perfectly fail when I bought a new box. As for the mags, they were new from the factory and I had problems from the beginning. One gun I traded in and the other I sent back to the factory and they reworked the trigger and sent me two new mags--which also didn't work. I also traded that gun. I hope that you don't believe that every round you put in a magazine is never going to fail just because you've "vetted" that type of ammo before. And I also hope that you don't believe that just because you've "vetted" the magazines you're using that one of them can't fail. Ammo, magazines, and guns can fail, no matter how well you've checked them out in the past

Crash


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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby flechero » Mon May 08, 2017 7:00 am

I absolutely believe a round or mag could fail. (I've had a factory dud before) The correct first response is still a tap, rack, bang (I also agree with others it should be tap, rack, assess)

ETA:
Crash- I hope you didn't take any of that personally, I should have pointed out that I was talking about the proverbial "you" as in- we all. :tiphat:

The original scenario said nothing about having proven your carry gear, which does make a difference around here... since [sadly] there are lots of people who buy a gun and immediately carry it or make it a night stand gun, without proving or ever having fired it.
Last edited by flechero on Mon May 08, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby Jusme » Mon May 08, 2017 7:17 am

CoffeeNut wrote:
Scott B. wrote:This is a good subject. The way we teach is it is, "Tap - Rack - Assess." Why? Let's say you're in a gun fight and while clearing your hypothetical malfunction the 'bad guy' -- so overwhelmed by your guns skills -- surrenders? But you follow up with "Bang" because that's the way you always practiced it?

Something to think about. :fire


I'd hope that most people wouldn't run a malfunction drill and immediately open fire again without making the split-second determination to see if they still have a valid target in their sights. Adrenaline does really weird things to people though...

Out of curiosity how would you practice this on a range?



Most ranges, where you are shooting at static targets standing in one place, will not allow for these drills. I am fortunate in that I have some private property on which to practice. There are some ranges that allow for these type of drills, but most are not close to me.

I agree with the tap, rack, and assess, before instantly squeezing off another round, for the fact that even momentarily, the target, could have moved, given up, a non-aggressive, innocent, person may have entered the kill zone, or the BG may have succumbed to rounds on target, before the malfunction. The "assessment" should only take a split second, tap rack and bang should not be performed while standing still, because during those few precious seconds you are "out of the fight" no matter how quickly it can be performed. JMHO
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby MojaveMan » Mon May 08, 2017 7:20 am

In instructor led practice, the instructor will call out 'threat' or not. Good teaching moment when somebody goes to bang out of habit. Practicing on your own, you make the call.


Absolutely. I find "tap, rack, point in" a much more prudent response. Having "tab, rack, bang" drilled into your head will train you to shoot after a malfunction - something that has lead to at least one very bad shooting I am aware of where an unfortunate individual killed somebody while attempting to NOT shoot them. I suppose such a response is more appropriate for a combat situation, but for defensive handgun, not so much.

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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Tue May 09, 2017 10:50 am

Crash wrote:For many years I've heard that the proper procedure for a malfunction in a semi-auto is tap the magazine to make sure it is firmly seated, rack the slide to eject the round that is causing the problem, then pull the trigger. However, there are some cases where tapping the magazine, etc., won't help. So, rather than having to learn two different procedures, i.e., tap, rack, bang or drop, replace, rack, bang, how about just always doing the latter since that will take care of almost any failure. And, yes, I know that you're getting rid of a magazine that may still have perfectly good rounds in it, but that may be worth the risk of not clearing the failure with tap, rack, bang.

What say ye?

Crash


1) because in competition (USPSA), taking the 'long route' burns more time, which can be significant scorewise, especially on a fast low round count stage
2) because in competition (IDPA) the long route burns more time, and you can't drop (on the ground) a mag that has rounds in it, and pocketing/re-mag-holder-ing it adds even more time.
In both the above cases, the short route cures your malfunction much of the time, and the 'trigger pull test' only takes a fraction of a second. In addition, you can often tell visually ahead of time when the situation requires removing the magazine (for instance, you have a double-feed).
3) in 'social' situations, I'll just say that time is of the essence and leave it at that.....
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby cyphertext » Wed May 10, 2017 7:18 am

MojaveMan wrote:
In instructor led practice, the instructor will call out 'threat' or not. Good teaching moment when somebody goes to bang out of habit. Practicing on your own, you make the call.


Absolutely. I find "tap, rack, point in" a much more prudent response. Having "tab, rack, bang" drilled into your head will train you to shoot after a malfunction - something that has lead to at least one very bad shooting I am aware of where an unfortunate individual killed somebody while attempting to NOT shoot them. I suppose such a response is more appropriate for a combat situation, but for defensive handgun, not so much.


Reacquiring the target in "tap, rack, bang" is a given... There is more to the "tap, rack, bang" process than what is listed in the name. For example, one step would be to watch that the problem round was ejected.


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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Fri May 12, 2017 10:25 am

Stating the obvious here, but if your practiced procedure involves replacing the mag, make sure that you ALWAYS carry a readily accessible spare mag. I know that I do not always do this. So I will stick with a modified version of what I learned in the military: Slap (the mag), Pull and Release the slide, and then reacquire the target. If I get a click at that point, I need cover and may need a BUG.
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby twomillenium » Fri May 12, 2017 4:15 pm

Scott B. wrote:This is a good subject. The way we teach is it is, "Tap - Rack - Assess." Why? Let's say you're in a gun fight and while clearing your hypothetical malfunction the 'bad guy' -- so overwhelmed by your guns skills -- surrenders? But you follow up with "Bang" because that's the way you always practiced it?

Something to think about. :fire

The "bad guy" should have surrendered sooner. :tiphat:
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Fri May 12, 2017 4:27 pm

Jusme wrote: Most ranges, where you are shooting at static targets standing in one place, will not allow for these drills. I am fortunate in that I have some private property on which to practice. There are some ranges that allow for these type of drills, but most are not close to me.


This varies greatly. I have heard of some ranges where they ask you to get a RO to clear any issues, but the indoor ranges I go to in Houston (Boyert and Memorial Shooting Center) allow you to clear your own issues. And I have been unfortunate enough to have a number of issues with the relatively few problem guns I have owned, so I naturally get some practice. If you wanted to force the practice, you could have someone else load your mags and put a few snap caps in among the good rounds. Sure you might lose some of them if they happen to end up down range, but it's not like they cost a ton of money.

Now if you are talking about the alternative approach of dropping a mag on the ground, then yes, I agree that most indoor ranges are going to have a problem with that.
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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby flechero » Sat May 13, 2017 6:38 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote: I have heard of some ranges where they ask you to get a RO to clear any issues, but the indoor ranges I go to in Houston (Boyert and Memorial Shooting Center) allow you to clear your own issues.


Do you actually mean that if your gun had a ftf or fte they expect you to set it down and go find a RO to clear it??


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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby OlBill » Sat May 13, 2017 7:58 am

Crash wrote:
OlBill wrote:A lot of times (most) the FTF is because the magazine wasn't seated properly because the gun was not properly loaded and checked. Factory ammunition is rarely the cause. Tap Rack fixes the most common FTF.

If Tap Rack doesn't fix it, you're going to need cover. You're going to have to look at the gun.


OlBill,

I agree with you that Tap Rack fixes the most common FTF. However, I've owned 12 semi-autos and fired quite a few others and most of the FTF I've had were because my gun didn't "like" a particular type of ammo. Not that the ammo was bad, it just wasn't compatible with the gun I was using. Also, I had a number of failures with two different .380s because of faulty factory magazines. Not saying that it was never my fault, but I only remember two FTF where I either limp-wristed the gun or didn't seat the magazine properly. I guess my problem is that I never want to be in a life-or-death situation, have an FTF, and have to stop and decide which method to use to correct the problem.

Crash


I don't think you do. Tap Rack is an immediate action. It is drilled until no decision is necessary.

Anything else is remedial action and requires assessment.

I can see no reason for a FTF because a gun "doesn't like the ammunition". If it is the proper caliber and type and the gun is functioning and set up right, it will be a failure to feed, not fire. Magazine issue.

Magazines are the weak link. Factory magazines vary from provider to provider. Most are low bidder. I don't use them.

Any magazine that does not function properly should be destroyed with a 16lb. mail.

Just my experience


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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby OlBill » Sat May 13, 2017 8:02 am

Scott B. wrote:This is a good subject. The way we teach is it is, "Tap - Rack - Assess." Why? Let's say you're in a gun fight and while clearing your hypothetical malfunction the 'bad guy' -- so overwhelmed by your guns skills -- surrenders? But you follow up with "Bang" because that's the way you always practiced it?

Something to think about. :fire

You bring up an interesting point.

I had already decided to shoot and pulled the trigger. It didn't bang and I never took my eyes off the threat while I fixed it. What am I assessing?


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Re: Tap, Rack, Bang or Drop, Replace, Rack, Bang?

Postby OlBill » Sat May 13, 2017 8:10 am

Crash wrote:
OlBill,

"You should have vetted carry ammo and mags long before carrying it..."? I check every round I put in a magazine and always have. However, I've had the same round that always worked perfectly fail when I bought a new box. As for the mags, they were new from the factory and I had problems from the beginning. One gun I traded in and the other I sent back to the factory and they reworked the trigger and sent me two new mags--which also didn't work. I also traded that gun. I hope that you don't believe that every round you put in a magazine is never going to fail just because you've "vetted" that type of ammo before. And I also hope that you don't believe that just because you've "vetted" the magazines you're using that one of them can't fail. Ammo, magazines, and guns can fail, no matter how well you've checked them out in the past

Crash


I didn't post that, but that's why we go to the range. ;-) I use McCormick mags and number them. If they fail (hasn't happened yet), Hammer Time.

I use 230 grain ball, the round the gun was designed to shoot.

I run the gun wet, probably more than most. And maintain them. The most "customizing" I do is change the grips.

I haven't had a FTF out of either of my guns yet.

Of course it could happen.


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