Checked baggage containing a firearm.

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ELB
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby ELB » Mon May 15, 2017 1:45 pm

JayStation3 wrote: The skinny? The skinny is my wife, my 2 year old and myself are flying to the northeast to visit family...


If by some unfortunate twist of fate or bad weather your airplane, with your gun in your checked baggage, is diverted into either New Jersey or New York and you are forced to deplane, you have a big problem.

If you claim your bag, and then try to check into a flight departing NY or NJ, and notify the airline agent that you will be checking a gun like a normal person, the agent will notify the local police and you will be arrested for illegal possession of a firearm unless you have the proper firearms owner ID card from those states, which is unlikely. Although the federal Firearms Owner Protection Act should protect you, it will not -- neither the state nor the federal judges in that region follow the law. In the long run you might beat the rap, but you will lose your gun(s), spend time in jail, and be out a lot of lawyer fees trying to save your hide.

For example: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01 ... court.html

Although the gentleman in the above article was able to dodge conviction, he was not allowed by lower courts to sue the police for wrongful arrest, and the SCOTUS declined to take his case: http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/201 ... bl1727.htm Note that link goes to a law firm that may or may not be able to help.

There's another lawyer that specializes in these cases here: http://www.martinkanelaw.com/criminal-d ... ga-or-jfk/

(I am not recommending either of these lawyers, nor not recommending against them, I just ran across their websites. If I went that direction, I might keep their names and numbers handy tho.)

So what do you do if you get dropped in enemy territory through no fault of your own? I know of no fail-safe "legal" solution. People have recommended that you refuse to claim your luggage, try to make the airline keep it in their control and forward it for you on whatever outbound flight you come up with. The Third Circuit recommended you not take possession of your bag but try to get the local police at the airport to hold it, or at least the gun, until you can get on an outbound flight. Me, I would do everything I could to make sure the local cops never know I have any connection to a firearm. The only other solutions I can think of would cost extra money, time, inconvenience, and entail their own legal jeopardy because of the screwed up way NY and NJ and the feds treat our constitutional rights.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon May 15, 2017 2:15 pm

ELB wrote:
JayStation3 wrote: The skinny? The skinny is my wife, my 2 year old and myself are flying to the northeast to visit family...


If by some unfortunate twist of fate or bad weather your airplane, with your gun in your checked baggage, is diverted into either New Jersey or New York and you are forced to deplane, you have a big problem.

If you claim your bag, and then try to check into a flight departing NY or NJ, and notify the airline agent that you will be checking a gun like a normal person, the agent will notify the local police and you will be arrested for illegal possession of a firearm unless you have the proper firearms owner ID card from those states, which is unlikely. Although the federal Firearms Owner Protection Act should protect you, it will not -- neither the state nor the federal judges in that region follow the law. In the long run you might beat the rap, but you will lose your gun(s), spend time in jail, and be out a lot of lawyer fees trying to save your hide.

For example: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01 ... court.html

Although the gentleman in the above article was able to dodge conviction, he was not allowed by lower courts to sue the police for wrongful arrest, and the SCOTUS declined to take his case: http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/201 ... bl1727.htm Note that link goes to a law firm that may or may not be able to help.

There's another lawyer that specializes in these cases here: http://www.martinkanelaw.com/criminal-d ... ga-or-jfk/

(I am not recommending either of these lawyers, nor not recommending against them, I just ran across their websites. If I went that direction, I might keep their names and numbers handy tho.)

So what do you do if you get dropped in enemy territory through no fault of your own? I know of no fail-safe "legal" solution. People have recommended that you refuse to claim your luggage, try to make the airline keep it in their control and forward it for you on whatever outbound flight you come up with. The Third Circuit recommended you not take possession of your bag but try to get the local police at the airport to hold it, or at least the gun, until you can get on an outbound flight. Me, I would do everything I could to make sure the local cops never know I have any connection to a firearm. The only other solutions I can think of would cost extra money, time, inconvenience, and entail their own legal jeopardy because of the screwed up way NY and NJ and the feds treat our constitutional rights.


Personally, I would not get the checked bag if forced to overnight in one of these locations. I always carry a change of clothes, toiletries, and some cash in case my bag is lost / delayed, so I would just skip the baggage claim altogether. Then check in for the flight the following day and let the airline know at that time about the bag with the gun. If it ended up getting stolen, insurance would cover the gun (NRA member).
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby EastTexasRancher » Mon May 15, 2017 3:48 pm

It amazes me that there are so many ticket agents/handlers that are unaware of the law. It seems that they'd "firearm train" a select few, and have them fully knowledgeable of what to do/not do.

Three years ago I was flying back from Alaska. Declared my firearms at the counter, filled out the forms, and the lady said "you'll take your bags around the counter, and down through TSA, and they'll take your bags". I'm standing in the TSA line with my spider senses going off. I call over an officer, & tell him what I was told. He pointed at a line on the floor by the conveyor and said "good thing you called me over....you were ten feet from handcuffs".

I wrote a note to the airlines....and yea, never heard back.

I'm flying out again this week to Florida, and will have my weapon(s) with me.

Know what I like about Florida? NO 30.06 / 30.07 SIGNS!!!! The law is the law there. But that's for another thread.

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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby Pawpaw » Tue May 16, 2017 10:52 am

It's curious how often these questions get asked and then an answer pops up in email.

Fear & Loading: Airlines Modifying Gun Travel Policies
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby JayStation3 » Wed May 17, 2017 6:02 pm

jmorris wrote:
JayStation3 wrote:....
I DO know based on TSA federal law that the passenger and the passenger alone must retain the key/combo for the approved locked container and possession of said container and not allow anyone else the ability to open said box out of owners view. I have also read situations where passengers were held up to miss flights because the TSA wouldn't follow the law and allow the passenger in the room while agents clear firearms case. Instead they insist on you giving keys or combo to them and they clear your case with out you present. Which against the federal law. (see below) (also any clarity on this would be appreciated)

****Title 49: Transportation, Part 1540 – Civil Aviation Security: General Rules, Subpart B – Responsibilities of Passengers and Other Individuals and Persons, 1540.111 (c) (iv) - The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

Title 49: Transportation, Part 1544 – Aircraft Operator Security: Air Carriers and Commercial Operators, Subpart C – Operations, 1544.203 (f) (iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination;****
....


I flew out of Indianapolis three times (last five years ago ) with a rifle case. After checking it the agent puts it on the conveyor and it disappears into the back. Every time my case has been flagged, I've been paged and asked for my keys. I quote the same regs and the response is it's in the secured area, you're not going there, we're not bringing it out here. Argument was futile. So, I could argue until I missed my flight, leave without my case, or give them my keys.

Filing complaint didn't help.


This is exactly what I'm talking about...
"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." - Thucydides

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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby JayStation3 » Wed May 17, 2017 6:15 pm

ELB wrote:
JayStation3 wrote: The skinny? The skinny is my wife, my 2 year old and myself are flying to the northeast to visit family...


If by some unfortunate twist of fate or bad weather your airplane, with your gun in your checked baggage, is diverted into either New Jersey or New York and you are forced to deplane, you have a big problem.

If you claim your bag, and then try to check into a flight departing NY or NJ, and notify the airline agent that you will be checking a gun like a normal person, the agent will notify the local police and you will be arrested for illegal possession of a firearm unless you have the proper firearms owner ID card from those states, which is unlikely. Although the federal Firearms Owner Protection Act should protect you, it will not -- neither the state nor the federal judges in that region follow the law. In the long run you might beat the rap, but you will lose your gun(s), spend time in jail, and be out a lot of lawyer fees trying to save your hide.

For example: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01 ... court.html

Although the gentleman in the above article was able to dodge conviction, he was not allowed by lower courts to sue the police for wrongful arrest, and the SCOTUS declined to take his case: http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/201 ... bl1727.htm Note that link goes to a law firm that may or may not be able to help.

There's another lawyer that specializes in these cases here: http://www.martinkanelaw.com/criminal-d ... ga-or-jfk/

(I am not recommending either of these lawyers, nor not recommending against them, I just ran across their websites. If I went that direction, I might keep their names and numbers handy tho.)

So what do you do if you get dropped in enemy territory through no fault of your own? I know of no fail-safe "legal" solution. People have recommended that you refuse to claim your luggage, try to make the airline keep it in their control and forward it for you on whatever outbound flight you come up with. The Third Circuit recommended you not take possession of your bag but try to get the local police at the airport to hold it, or at least the gun, until you can get on an outbound flight. Me, I would do everything I could to make sure the local cops never know I have any connection to a firearm. The only other solutions I can think of would cost extra money, time, inconvenience, and entail their own legal jeopardy because of the screwed up way NY and NJ and the feds treat our constitutional rights.



I had not actually thought of that. But being I've flown this trip a million times and have never been diverted north for any reason, it's not a big concern of mine. This does raise a small concern for being diverted to Illinois however...i do appreciate the info just in case this ever does happen.... I'm going to Avoca, near Scranton by lay over in Atlanta.
"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." - Thucydides

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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby tbrown » Fri May 19, 2017 6:52 pm

JayStation3 wrote:
tbrown wrote:If they're only tagging bags with guns that way, you're correct they're violating federal law. However, if they tag all "high value" luggage that way, so they get special handling and bypass the unsecured baggage claim area, that's different. In most airports now, nobody checks the baggage claim receipt matches the bag tag. It's a reasonable precaution to prevent a bag with a firearm, high end photography gear, etc. growing legs.

If you're flying into ABE, a checked firearm should be a non issue, particularly compared to PHL.



The federal law states specifically that "a bag containing a firearm may not be labeled, tagged or marked in anyway".

I have a gps tracker. It will be accompanied with my firearm. I won't be loosing anything :)

Are you saying they can't put a standard luggage tag on bags containing a firearm? How will the ground crew know how to route it?
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby DocV » Sat May 20, 2017 7:57 am

jmorris wrote:...
I flew out of Indianapolis three times (last five years ago ) with a rifle case. After checking it the agent puts it on the conveyor and it disappears into the back. Every time my case has been flagged, I've been paged and asked for my keys. I quote the same regs and the response is it's in the secured area, you're not going there, we're not bringing it out here. Argument was futile. So, I could argue until I missed my flight, leave without my case, or give them my keys.

Filing complaint didn't help.


Use a biometric lock. Then you are the key. :biggrinjester:
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby Excaliber » Sat May 20, 2017 8:05 am

DocV wrote:
jmorris wrote:...
I flew out of Indianapolis three times (last five years ago ) with a rifle case. After checking it the agent puts it on the conveyor and it disappears into the back. Every time my case has been flagged, I've been paged and asked for my keys. I quote the same regs and the response is it's in the secured area, you're not going there, we're not bringing it out here. Argument was futile. So, I could argue until I missed my flight, leave without my case, or give them my keys.

Filing complaint didn't help.


Use a biometric lock. Then you are the key. :biggrinjester:


In that case, they would likely use their "universal keys" and your case would never be the same afterwards.
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby Excaliber » Sat May 20, 2017 8:07 am

tbrown wrote:
JayStation3 wrote:
tbrown wrote:If they're only tagging bags with guns that way, you're correct they're violating federal law. However, if they tag all "high value" luggage that way, so they get special handling and bypass the unsecured baggage claim area, that's different. In most airports now, nobody checks the baggage claim receipt matches the bag tag. It's a reasonable precaution to prevent a bag with a firearm, high end photography gear, etc. growing legs.

If you're flying into ABE, a checked firearm should be a non issue, particularly compared to PHL.



The federal law states specifically that "a bag containing a firearm may not be labeled, tagged or marked in anyway".

I have a gps tracker. It will be accompanied with my firearm. I won't be loosing anything :)

Are you saying they can't put a standard luggage tag on bags containing a firearm? How will the ground crew know how to route it?


The cited section of law prohibits marking the bag in a distinguishing manner different from other bags to indicate it contains a firearm.
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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby rm9792 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:34 pm

I flew Delta 3 weeks ago. Ammo in mags is legal and even stated so in the FAQ. They are indeed special tagging the bags and tie wrapping them upon arrival where you cant open it. Another feel good annoyance that literally stops nothing. Also, you have to get it from the lost baggage counter. IAH if you are wondering.


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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby rm9792 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:36 pm

JayStation3 wrote:I am NOT sure if the magazines that are stored in the same lockable container can be loaded or not. I do know that there is nothing on either TSA or Delta websites restricting the cartridges from being inside a magazine... I have read several scenarios on blogs and other forums of accounts where TSA forced a passenger to miss their flight because the loaded mags "raised a red flag". (any clarity on this is appreciated)

...


From TSA FAQ

Ammunition
•Ammunition is prohibited in carry-on baggage, but may be transported in checked baggage.
•Firearm magazines and ammunition clips, whether loaded or empty, must be securely boxed or included within a hard-sided case containing an unloaded firearm. Read the requirements governing the transport of ammunition in checked baggage as defined by 49 CFR 175.10 (a)(8).
•Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm.

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Re: Checked baggage containing a firearm.

Postby RoyGBiv » Mon May 22, 2017 8:50 am

I've had mixed experiences checking loaded magazines.
Obviously, a loaded magazine cannot be in the gun. I've flown many times with with loaded magazines inside the locked case, but not inside the gun. One magazine is stored in a mag carrier, so the first round of ammo is covered, the other magazine is uncovered, but the foam in the case is so tight, the magazine isn't going to move around at all.

Twice (flying American both times) I was told that the uncovered magazine is a no-go and I had to unload it. The first time I was surprised, since I had flown many times previously and not had a problem. The second time was my fault, I suppose, for thinking the first time was an anomaly. Fortunately I had a half box of extra ammo both times, so I had a place to unload it into. Now, when I check my gun, I have one loaded and covered magazine and one empty magazine. With extra ammo in my suitcase, in a Cabelas plastic case.
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