I just had a reality check

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cmgee67
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I just had a reality check

Postby cmgee67 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:48 am

This Did not happen in real life but it happened in a dream. And while it was only a dream it put everything into perspective. If I was going to be in a self defense situation of not just me but my wife with say 3 attackers my 45 shield in my opinion wouldn't have enough rounds even though I carry a back up mag. I'm not a perfect shot and with that many targets and opportunities I'd miss. I love the M&p pistols and how the feel especially the new grip texture that's in my shield. I'm heavily considering buying an M&P 2.0 9mm. 17+1 cap. Plus I'd carry a back up mag. 35 rounds of 9mm is pretty good.

What are your thoughts am I over thinking this and just had a. As dream or is there any truth to my thoughts. I think there most certainly is. That old saying if you knew you were gonna be in a gun fight wouldn't you carry all you can?
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby Jusme » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:20 am

cmgee67 wrote:This Did not happen in real life but it happened in a dream. And while it was only a dream it put everything into perspective. If I was going to be in a self defense situation of not just me but my wife with say 3 attackers my 45 shield in my opinion wouldn't have enough rounds even though I carry a back up mag. I'm not a perfect shot and with that many targets and opportunities I'd miss. I love the M&p pistols and how the feel especially the new grip texture that's in my shield. I'm heavily considering buying an M&P 2.0 9mm. 17+1 cap. Plus I'd carry a back up mag. 35 rounds of 9mm is pretty good.

What are your thoughts am I over thinking this and just had a. As dream or is there any truth to my thoughts. I think there most certainly is. That old saying if you knew you were gonna be in a gun fight wouldn't you carry all you can?



I carry a full size M&P for that very reason, not because of a dream, but because I can never know, exactly what circumstance I may find myself, nor exactly how many rounds may be enough. Criminals, like to travel in groups, because they believe they will have the upper hand over a lone person, or even a couple. I would rather have the extra rounds and never need them, than to need them and not have them. I know that statistics, say the most self defense encounters, only require a few rounds, but I don't train to ward off statistics.
I also carry two extra 17 round mags. I can't imagine a scenario, where I would need all 52 rounds, but it would also give me more options, in case of a magazine failure, or some other reason where I would have to drop a mag. With my gun in a DeSantis holster, I can conceal it under an untucked shirt if necessary,
Everyone will have to make their own choices, for carry, and I will never criticize anyone's decision, but this is what I have decided will work best for me. JMHO
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby oljames3 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:33 am

cmgee67 wrote:This Did not happen in real life but it happened in a dream. And while it was only a dream it put everything into perspective. If I was going to be in a self defense situation of not just me but my wife with say 3 attackers my 45 shield in my opinion wouldn't have enough rounds even though I carry a back up mag. I'm not a perfect shot and with that many targets and opportunities I'd miss. I love the M&p pistols and how the feel especially the new grip texture that's in my shield. I'm heavily considering buying an M&P 2.0 9mm. 17+1 cap. Plus I'd carry a back up mag. 35 rounds of 9mm is pretty good.

What are your thoughts am I over thinking this and just had a. As dream or is there any truth to my thoughts. I think there most certainly is. That old saying if you knew you were gonna be in a gun fight wouldn't you carry all you can?

Capacity gives me options to stay in the fight. My basic load is 65 (16x4 +1).

The only time it might be possible to have too much ammo is when you are trying to swim. :biggrinjester:

We each should carry what best fits our abilities and needs in whatever manner best matches our circumstances.

Each mag change is a potential point of failure. Having 16 rounds in each mag reduces the number of mag changes required to fire a given number of rounds. Having more than two magazines gives me options to engage multiple targets multiple times before having to resupply.

As with most things in life, it comes down to which risks we are willing to manage and which benefits matter most.

My everyday carry is a S&W M&P Mod 2.0 9mm 5inch in flat dark earth. One of the many reasons I carry openly is that I want to carry a high capacity pistol with a long sight radius. This weapon is difficult to conceal. I carry three spare mags because that is all that will reasonably fit on my belt.

I carry 16 rounds in my 17 round magazines because I have found that loading only 16 rounds makes the magazines easier for me to reliably seat and for the slide to reliably strip the first round. I have not had issues with seating a mag, but I have noticed that I must exert more force and pay attention to properly seat the fully loaded mag. My pistol has never failed to strip the first round from a fully loaded mag, but I have noticed that, when emptying a mag by hand to change ammo, I have to exert significantly more force to remove the first round from a fully loaded mag than to remove the next round. Under stress, whether self-induce in training or competition or in an actual deadly force incident, fine motor skills diminish severely. Loading a mag and manipulating the slide to load a round become problematic. Thus, at the cost of four rounds (one from each mag), I reduce the risk of failure at two points.

Works for me.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:07 am

I would say, go back to carrying your Glock 19, which it wasn't that long ago you were singing its praises as the perfect carry pistol on the pages of this forum. Do you really want to spend another $500-$600 (or whatever the M&P 2.0 costs), when you still own that G19? Of course, it's your money to do with as you see fit.......but that is the thought I would want to address first before going out and dropping another large sum of money on a new gun.....and the holster(s) to fit it, etc., etc. And if it is about the grip texture, you might consider having any one of a dozen people who do Glock stippling to improve the texture of your G19's grip. Typically, that would cost about a quarter or less of the cost of a new gun.

Slightly off topic, but this is why I bought myself a G26. I EDC my G19, and I have a G43 for those situations when a small gun is called for, but I had the same concerns as you do about capacity with that G43. With a +2 Pearce pinky rest on the G26 mag, capacity is 12+1. The G43's capacity is 6+1. you can add a +2 magazine extension, but that still leaves it in the single digits at 8+1. The width of the frame and slide excepted, there is virtually no difference in size between the G43 and the G26 (see image here). AND..... the G26 can take my G19 and G17 magazines, and my 33-round stick magazines. Now, I'm not trying to sell you on buying a G26.....just explaining my own rationale.

Now..... You already own a Glock 19 that you say you like a lot. Why buy another duty-sized pistol that does not have magazines in common with your Shield (or your G19, for that matter)? Carry your G19 when you want more capacity; carry your Shield when you want less capacity. And if you ever get to the point where you just have to buy another smaller pistol to bridge the gap between the 15+1 rounds of the G19 and the handful in the Shield, buy a used G26 and save yourself some money. And if you really have to have more rounds for your G19, buy a +3 magazine extension for your G19 mags ($9.95), or buy a G17 mag or a G17 mag with a +3 grip mag extension, or buy a 33-round mag.......ALL of which cost less than buying a whole other pistol.

My point is that there are a whole lot of ways to up your carrying capacity - using a pistol you already own and like - without dropping a bunch of money on the cost of yet another pistol that has magazine commonality with neither of your existing pistols. And this advice is coming from someone who has been willing to spend money before.....

That's my 2¢. YMMV.
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby LimaCharlie3 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:30 am

I too have had reality checks, only they weren't dreams. Take from it what you will. I lean towards preferring a heavier, faster round but I still carry a .380 several days a week. Better to carry something than nothing at all, I say.
Several years ago I was in a huge, multi-agency manhunt. At least 30 cars all tryin to get the escaped inmate armed with a hospital guards' gun. In the end, he baled out in a farmers field and took the suicide by cop route. He was hit over 40 times with 9mm. That didn't stop him; it was the lone .357 magnum fired by a reserve deputy that was the only mortal wound. Simply amazing to me then. Shortly after that the department went to .357sig and the city pd went to .40.
Now, my conflicting perspective: my partner had to shoot a guy breaking into his home and hit him 5 times with a .357 magnum, point blank range. Didn't stop him! He kept advancing so far as to rip the bathroom door off the hinges tryin to get to his girlfriend hiding in there. He finally passed out from blood loss but didn't perish. He went to prison. He was on PCP.
So, a few big rounds, a lotta small rounds.... I just can't say which is better anymore. On a side note - that .357sig works. Bad guy shot a deputy, deputy returned fire and dropped that bad guy on the spot. Sorry if I've added to your indecision!


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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby MeMelYup » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:04 am

LimaCharlie3 wrote:I too have had reality checks, only they weren't dreams. Take from it what you will. I lean towards preferring a heavier, faster round but I still carry a .380 several days a week. Better to carry something than nothing at all, I say.
Several years ago I was in a huge, multi-agency manhunt. At least 30 cars all tryin to get the escaped inmate armed with a hospital guards' gun. In the end, he baled out in a farmers field and took the suicide by cop route. He was hit over 40 times with 9mm. That didn't stop him; it was the lone .357 magnum fired by a reserve deputy that was the only mortal wound. Simply amazing to me then. Shortly after that the department went to .357sig and the city pd went to .40.
Now, my conflicting perspective: my partner had to shoot a guy breaking into his home and hit him 5 times with a .357 magnum, point blank range. Didn't stop him! He kept advancing so far as to rip the bathroom door off the hinges tryin to get to his girlfriend hiding in there. He finally passed out from blood loss but didn't perish. He went to prison. He was on PCP.
So, a few big rounds, a lotta small rounds.... I just can't say which is better anymore. On a side note - that .357sig works. Bad guy shot a deputy, deputy returned fire and dropped that bad guy on the spot. Sorry if I've added to your indecision!

Isn't that instance why the army went to 45. During the boar war the people were high so when they were hit by 38 cal bullets they kept going.

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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby bblhd672 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:18 am

oljames3 wrote:I carry 16 rounds in my 17 round magazines because I have found that loading only 16 rounds makes the magazines easier for me to reliably seat and for the slide to reliably strip the first round. I have not had issues with seating a mag, but I have noticed that I must exert more force and pay attention to properly seat the fully loaded mag. My pistol has never failed to strip the first round from a fully loaded mag, but I have noticed that, when emptying a mag by hand to change ammo, I have to exert significantly more force to remove the first round from a fully loaded mag than to remove the next round. Under stress, whether self-induce in training or competition or in an actual deadly force incident, fine motor skills diminish severely. Loading a mag and manipulating the slide to load a round become problematic. Thus, at the cost of four rounds (one from each mag), I reduce the risk of failure at two points.

Works for me.


FWIW, I've put about 2000 rounds through by M&P 2.0 FDE 5" during training classes, with 17 rounds in each magazine, doing both tactical and combat reloads. Never experienced any issues with either stripping the first round or seating the magazine with a firm smack on the bottom (of the mag you jokers) with a fully loaded 17 rounds.
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby flechero » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:26 am

I like TAM's response above.

I'll only add that having a shield with 6 or 7 rounds of .45acp (in the worst case scenario) is better than the double stack you leave at home. So if you can and will carry the glock or the M&P (if you buy it) then great, but don't get rid of the shield and carry gear for it- as you may find yourself needing a more discreet or comfortable option for some situations.

Remember the rule is to carry the largest/best shooting gun you will actually carry. The answer is not necessarily the same gun every day. The gun changes for me depending on the dress code...

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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby Middle Age Russ » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:40 am

:iagree: with flechero! What you have available at the time of need -- tools, skills and time -- are all you have to work with.
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby troglodyte » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:01 am

Here's where I am on the capacity debate. If I'm out on my own or with my wife, who carries. I may opt for my .45 and a reload.

If I get in a situation where lead is flying I don't plan on staying around very long. I'll put rounds on target as best as I can and, hopefully, be retreating or seeking cover. 8 rounds + 7 reload should give me enough options to separate from the threat.

Now if I'm out with my grandkids or at church or such I carry my XD9SC with 14 on board and two 16 round reloads.

If the unfortunate happens then I don't have as many options to run and I may have to dig in and cover everyone else's retreat. Now I want more ammo and extra mags. I don't ever anticipate needing the third mag as I figure they'll be down, I'll be down, or we will separate. The third mag is primarily for a failure and mag swap.

I am not law enforcement or military who are expected to press the fight. I am not expected to go to the sound of gunfire. While I might, depending on the circumstances, my primary goal is keeping me and mine safe. Put rounds on target, move, seek cover and distance as the situation permits.

You'll notice the weasel words "should" "hopefully", and "anticipate". This are calculated risks that I have determined some how. As has been said before, if you know you are going to get into a gunfight, don't go. Otherwise, armor up, take a rifle, take a lot of friends with rifles, and call in an airstrike. Carrying a handgun is a compromise in itself. We further compromise by what we choose to carry (size, capacity, caliber). Somewhere we settle in to what we feel is adequate. I also feel we get lost sometimes in the capacity argument and don't remember, or at least don't stress enough, that training will probably benefit us more than capacity in most cases. I know I don't train enough and I suspect that I'm far from being alone.

I don't recommend people carrying .22s for self-defense but if an individual can hit a running jack rabbit in the eye at 50 paces then I don't think they are undergunned. We tend to carry larger, more powerful calibers because we know we're not that good. It also gives us a more latitude when the ideal shot is not there, be it stress, position, or barriers. Our job is to put the round where it needs to go. Capacity allows us to miss. Not miss the target completely but to miss the perfect brain (CNS) or heart shot. Capacity allows us to punch more holes, either to have more chances to hit the brain and heart or more holes to bleed out of. Capacity also allows us to punch holes in more bad guys. if need be. If we train enough to know we can hit the jack rabbit in the eye then caliber and capacity are moot. A five shot .38 snubby would take of five bad guys. Then there is Murphy to contend with so we try to hedge against him. Until then we train and give ourselves the benefit capacity and caliber. How many and how big is determined by our comfort level and skill.


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cmgee67
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby cmgee67 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:50 pm

I'm not goin to stop carrying the 45 shield at work because I have to stay concleaed and I do love my Glock 19. I think I will go with what TAM said and carry my 19 if I need more capacity. I didn't think about buying more holsters and such. That's a good point. I can stick with what I have and make it work. I still sing of the 19's praises it's a great gun. I tried a 2.0 M&p today and I found it too hard to conceal so I didn't pull the trigger. I think I'll just spend more money on ammo and mags for my shield and 19 and go with that. I need the shield in some places due to staying concealed. I loovvvve that gun. For its size and slimness. That 5" on the 2.0 were a little much for me today especially since I carry appending or 3:30 owb strong side and conceal.
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:04 pm

cmgee67 wrote:I'm not goin to stop carrying the 45 shield at work because I have to stay concleaed and I do love my Glock 19. I think I will go with what TAM said and carry my 19 if I need more capacity. I didn't think about buying more holsters and such. That's a good point. I can stick with what I have and make it work. I still sing of the 19's praises it's a great gun. I tried a 2.0 M&p today and I found it too hard to conceal so I didn't pull the trigger. I think I'll just spend more money on ammo and mags for my shield and 19 and go with that. I need the shield in some places due to staying concealed. I loovvvve that gun. For its size and slimness. That 5" on the 2.0 were a little much for me today especially since I carry appending or 3:30 owb strong side and conceal.

:thumbs2:

BTW, I'd be surprised if Pearce (or somebody else) didn't make a +2 mag extension for your Shield. What I did with my G43 is keep the standard OEM mag with the pinky rest as is, and I put a +2 extender on the spare mag - giving me 8 rounds instead of 6 in that mag. I keep the 6 round mag in the gun because it conceals mo' bettah, and the extended as a backup. I'll bet you can set your Shield up the same way.
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby WTR » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:37 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
cmgee67 wrote:I'm not goin to stop carrying the 45 shield at work because I have to stay concleaed and I do love my Glock 19. I think I will go with what TAM said and carry my 19 if I need more capacity. I didn't think about buying more holsters and such. That's a good point. I can stick with what I have and make it work. I still sing of the 19's praises it's a great gun. I tried a 2.0 M&p today and I found it too hard to conceal so I didn't pull the trigger. I think I'll just spend more money on ammo and mags for my shield and 19 and go with that. I need the shield in some places due to staying concealed. I loovvvve that gun. For its size and slimness. That 5" on the 2.0 were a little much for me today especially since I carry appending or 3:30 owb strong side and conceal.

:thumbs2:

BTW, I'd be surprised if Pearce (or somebody else) didn't make a +2 mag extension for your Shield. What I did with my G43 is keep the standard OEM mag with the pinky rest as is, and I put a +2 extender on the spare mag - giving me 8 rounds instead of 6 in that mag. I keep the 6 round mag in the gun because it conceals mo' bettah, and the extended as a backup. I'll bet you can set your Shield up the same way.


The gang and drug unit Police Officers that I knew, all praised the .45 for it's ability to put the bad guys down quickly ( even the ones on PCP). I met one "tunnel rat" from Vietnam Nam who praised the 45 for putting a Viet Cong down quickly. The P Officers prefer a .357 as a back up. These were guys who have been there and done that.

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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:57 pm

MeMelYup wrote:Isn't that instance why the army went to 45. During the boar war the people were high so when they were hit by 38 cal bullets they kept going.


I believe you're thinking about the Moro Rebellion in the Phillipines around 1900. (US Army vs. indigenous (muslim) tribes). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Rebellion. Resulted in re-issue of mothballed Colt single-actions left over from the (native american) Indian wars, followed by army requesting designs/prototypes to be submitted for a modern replacement that led to the John Browning's Colt 1911

Boer War was Britain vs. Dutch in southern Africa at about the same time. A young Winston Churchill gained some military experience in that one.
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Re: I just had a reality check

Postby AndyC » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:23 pm

:iagree:
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