FBI Switch

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Liberty
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Re: FBI Switch

Postby Liberty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:19 am

Liberty wrote:I am a 9mm guy because.

1: 9mm ammo is cheap, I don't buy the cheapest range ammo available compared to the larger alternatives it's cheaper. Cheaper means I shoot more. I shoot more so my 9mm is more accurate.

2: I found that I can shoot the larger caliber just as accurately, but when I attempt to string together shots, the follow up shots are slower and less accurate.

3: Gell test have shown over and over again that good modern defensive ammo makes holes pretty simular to .40 and ,45 Cal.

4: More ammo. 7 or 8 rounds just doesn't seem to be enough.

5: Unsupported chambers is this a real danger? I don't know, but I believe a gun should be more dangerous to the front than it is the rear.

6: 9mm guns are just more reliable by design. Never needed to polish a ramp, Heck my Beretta doesn't even have a ramp.

7: 9mm is easier on the gun than .40. I believe most 9mm handguns will have a longer service life than a .40 cal.

8: There are some very kewl small 9mm handguns.

9: I only stock one caliber, some people like to shoot a variety of things. I'm just a simple man with a simple budget.

10: I just enjoy shooting a 9mm more than I have other calibers.

I was explaining my reasoning for my personal choice. I don't believe that everyone who chooses not to make 9mm their carry that they are making a mistake. Todays modern ammo choices are mostly pretty good. Bellow I explain why I might differ from your choices. I am not trying to continue the silly caliber wars just trying to explain my reasoning for me.

parabelum wrote:1. The argument that 9mm is so much cheaper is not true anymore. As an example, I can get Speer gold dots in 357 Sig for $22.97 per box of 50, or $17.97 for 357 Sig lawman fmj box of 50 (ammunition depot).

You are right about modern defensive loads. I use range ammo for almost all my shooting. There is a larger price differential when it comes to range ammo. I believe that most agencies require that their officers qualify with the same ammo that they carry. If folks do most of the shooting using premium rounds the price differential is not as much.

parabelum wrote:2. That's a personal preference argument. Some people, myself included, are actually better shots with larger calibers.

Shot to shot recovery will be faster for most people on a 9mm. That being said, a lot of variables will be with the shooter and particular guns.
parabelum wrote:3. Similar or not, 9mm when all things pressure wise are equal (no +p or +p+) will not have the power factor of 40, 45, 357 Sig etc. Just can't cheat physics.
No arguement about the pwer factor being larger on bigger guns.

No argument about power factor being greater on a larger caliber., But just how important is power factor? When it comes down to Channel wound the differences can be marginal, although the larger caliber will normally be slightly larger.
parabelum wrote:
4. Not necessarily true in all cases. There are small powerhouses that move a more potent projectiles then 9mm, with plenty rounds. G33,G32, P229...

I was speaking in generalities, but generally speaking these guns have large grips which are can be difficult for those with smaller hands. some of the 9mm have huge capacities, but they are unwieldy and impractcal for EDC.

parabelum wrote:5. Agree.

parabelum wrote:6. That only holds true for certain gun models and can swing both ways. Some can say 357 Sig is actually more reliable due to its bottleneck design. Some might be right, maybe. It all depends on the gun model.

True, from what I have gathered the .40 is pretty reliable also. The gun model will have alot to do with this. But speaking in generalities I think that people tend to have fewer problems with 9mm. I never have had to fluff and buff any 9mm.
parabelum wrote:7. I've heard that argument for years, without ever actually seeing any reputable tests to confirm this. All it is is forum driven hypothetical discussion based on the pressure tolerances from 40 vs 9. I have put thousands of rounds through various 40 caliber guns, Sig, Glock, H&K, Kahr... I have never been able to break one. Even with extensive shooting using Buffalo Bore 155gr 40+p (the only properly loaded .40 IMHO) round.

Perhaps, but it stands to reason the softer recoil andlower pressure might be easier on a gun.
parabelum wrote:
8. Agree. But, same is true for 45's etc. :biggrinjester:

Yup, but the 9mm are typically smaller and more ammo. Nothing in .45 like the LC9. I don't own anything like that but they seem pretty kewl to me.
parabelum wrote:9. Valid point.

parabelum wrote:10. Same as #2 from above.


I don't think any of the discussed choices are bad. As someone mentioned earlier, my subcompact 9mm wouldn't be my weapon of choice in bear country. There is nothing wrong with folks packing their full sized 1911 either. It's just not my choice.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: FBI Switch

Postby The Annoyed Man » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:04 am

Liberty wrote:I don't think any of the discussed choices are bad. As someone mentioned earlier, my subcompact 9mm wouldn't be my weapon of choice in bear country. There is nothing wrong with folks packing their full sized 1911 either. It's just not my choice.

In "bear country", I wouldn't pack any of my regular carry guns in 9mm OR .45 ACP. I'd carry my .44 Magnum and my Mossberg loaded with slugs. But I don't live in or even travel much through bear country, so a normal self-defense round is good for me. For years, I carried mostly .45 ACP guns. I had a .40 cal for a while, but while I liked the platform (HK USP Compact), I never could get used to the caliber. I shot .45 and 9mm just fine, but the .40 seemed to lie right in that "sweet spot" between bullet weight and muzzle velocity that made quick followup shots much harder. In the end, mostly because I've gotten older, I've opted for higher capacity 9mm pistols because they weigh less fully loaded than do my .45s. That even holds true with both of my single stack "pocketable" pistols - an XDS-45 and a G43. The XDS weighs 20.5 oz with one empty 5 round magazine. The G43 weighs 22.36 oz fully loaded with a 6 round magazine. 5+1 versus 6+1. Extended backup magazines: XDS 6 rounds versus G43 8 rounds.

The story repeats itself when comparing my XDM-45 3.8" Compact to my G19. The G19 weighs considerably less when fully loaded than the XDM, carries more ammo, and is approximately the same size.

For premium ammo, yeah, the cost is roughly the same; but like Liberty, I shoot just enough of the premium to familiarize myself with it, but I practice with inexpensive ball ammo, of which the 9mm costs a LOT less than the .45.

I shoot both calibers about equally well, but I carry more comfortably with the 9mm, have more rounds on hand, and with modern SD ammo, I am pretty confident that they'll perform about the same if, heaven forbid, I should have to actually use the gun on somebody (dogs are people too). If looks counted, the Springfields would win. But I don't care about that stuff anymore.
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patterson
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Re: FBI Switch

Postby patterson » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:40 pm

Ive shot .45s longer and more frequent than 9mm and I am more accurate with ,45 so feel more confident carrying that caliber


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Re: FBI Switch

Postby cyphur » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:12 pm

Lots of people dead over in the box from 9mm rounds. LOTS.

I've trained with and talked to enough operators to know that shot placement and dispersal of kinetic damage trumps initial kinetic shock. You aren't likely to get a single shot knockdown out of a pistol in a fluid situation unless you are highly trained anyhow. You don't wait to find out if you did, you shoot until they stop moving. MAYBE a 45ACP only requires 3 rounds instead of 5, but at what cost in terms of weight? Always many factors.

Cost efficiencies of the 9mm are undeniable. The military and NATO, Federal agencies, buy in bulk in the order of hundreds of thousands of rounds, in millions of rounds. The sheer cost in weight of brass and lead amount to higher costs.


In any event - debating calibers is like Ford vs Chevy. 9mm is still going to ruin your day, just like a Ford or Chevy will both get you to Point B(usually).
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Re: FBI Switch

Postby MechAg94 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:07 am


I have watched this in a while. Paul Harrell's take on the Miami Dade shoot out. I has been a while since I watched it, but it sounded like ammo selection was really only a small part of the issues. Bringing pistols to a fight with rifles among other things.

Anyone know of any other good videos on that subject?


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Re: FBI Switch

Postby patterson » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:54 pm

MechAg94 wrote:https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ
I have watched this in a while. Paul Harrell's take on the Miami Dade shoot out. I has been a while since I watched it, but it sounded like ammo selection was really only a small part of the issues. Bringing pistols to a fight with rifles among other things.

Anyone know of any other good videos on that subject?

I think ammo caliber was more than a small part as suspects were hit multiple times and still kept fighting


OlBill
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Re: FBI Switch

Postby OlBill » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:29 pm

You shoot a bear with a 9MM or a .45, he's liable to be mad when he wakes up and finds out about it.


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Re: FBI Switch

Postby OlBill » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:30 pm

patterson wrote:
MechAg94 wrote:https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ
I have watched this in a while. Paul Harrell's take on the Miami Dade shoot out. I has been a while since I watched it, but it sounded like ammo selection was really only a small part of the issues. Bringing pistols to a fight with rifles among other things.

Anyone know of any other good videos on that subject?

I think ammo caliber was more than a small part as suspects were hit multiple times and still kept fighting

Some people are just hard to kill.


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Re: FBI Switch

Postby WTR » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:58 pm

I think the video shows how fast a situation can go South with inadequate preparation even with very well trained people. After watching his video comparing the .40 and the 9mm, I would say caliber and bullet selection definitely make a huge difference.


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Re: FBI Switch

Postby twomillenium » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:07 am

I have not read anything in this post that is blatantly false or new. I do not think anyone is going to change someone else's opinion by repeating a very old argument with the same old information and points of contention. What I do realize is that the best caliber or handgun to use in carry would be the one that you handle best. If you handle all of these with great proficiency, then the determining factor would be what makes you feel best in everyday circumstance. That is what it boils down too. Personal preference and there is no right or wrong, except when you think others should yield to your personal preference. I do not see any particular valid reasoning as to why the FBI does not allow the agents to carry any caliber where the agent meets departmental proficiency with several approved calibers. Just sayin
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Re: FBI Switch

Postby Liberty » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:51 pm

twomillenium wrote: I do not see any particular valid reasoning as to why the FBI does not allow the agents to carry any caliber where the agent meets departmental proficiency with several approved calibers. Just sayin


The government hates it when individuals making decisions and wants to make the choices themselves. That is the very nature of every government, every agency, every, bureaucracy.
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Re: FBI Switch

Postby twomillenium » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:45 pm

Liberty wrote:
twomillenium wrote: I do not see any particular valid reasoning as to why the FBI does not allow the agents to carry any caliber where the agent meets departmental proficiency with several approved calibers. Just sayin


The government hates it when individuals making decisions and wants to make the choices themselves. That is the very nature of every government, every agency, every, bureaucracy.

You are probably right! That is why I said "valid reasoning". :cool:
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