Straw Man Query

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skeathley
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby skeathley » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:47 am

When I retired, my company bought a Dan Wesson 1911 and gifted it to me. No paperwork involved, and it is quite legal.

I was expecting a cake.

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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby puma guy » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:11 am

RoyGBiv wrote:
twomillenium wrote:Unless things have changed in the last 10 years. If you are buying a firearm to gift to someone who can legally own and possess a firearm, then the answer to the question on the 4473 form, "are you buying the firearm for yourself" is yes, because you plan to use it as a gift from you. IANAL

This is my understanding as well.
I bought my wife a gun for Christmas a few years ago.

I believe (my opinion) that a straw purchase would be if someone gives you the money and you buy the gun for them (which would require you to make a false statement on the 4473).

I recall a story from a year or two ago where a LEO got in trouble for buying a Glock for a friend using his LE discount because the friend wrote him a check before the gun was purchased. That's a no-no. Any arrangement where the gun is purchased with the intention of "selling" it on to another person immediately after the purchase is a no-no, regardless of when the second - sale money changes hands.

IANAL. Just my opinion.

You're correct about the case of the LEO using his discount for his friend. He was convicted I believe.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby RPBrown » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:37 am

puma guy wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:
twomillenium wrote:Unless things have changed in the last 10 years. If you are buying a firearm to gift to someone who can legally own and possess a firearm, then the answer to the question on the 4473 form, "are you buying the firearm for yourself" is yes, because you plan to use it as a gift from you. IANAL

This is my understanding as well.
I bought my wife a gun for Christmas a few years ago.

I believe (my opinion) that a straw purchase would be if someone gives you the money and you buy the gun for them (which would require you to make a false statement on the 4473).

I recall a story from a year or two ago where a LEO got in trouble for buying a Glock for a friend using his LE discount because the friend wrote him a check before the gun was purchased. That's a no-no. Any arrangement where the gun is purchased with the intention of "selling" it on to another person immediately after the purchase is a no-no, regardless of when the second - sale money changes hands.

IANAL. Just my opinion.

You're correct about the case of the LEO using his discount for his friend. He was convicted I believe.


What amount of time has to elapse before selling? I had a unique situation several months ago. Purchased my wife an XD9 sub compact for an EDC. She realized after a trip to the range that I was not there to load for her that she could not rack the slide herself. We sold the gun to a very good friend (CHL holder) and bought her another. Total time between sales was 2 weeks.

On another note, I have bought each of my kids and their spouses a gun of some sort over the years for Christmas.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby TVGuy » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:38 am

RPBrown wrote:
puma guy wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:
twomillenium wrote:Unless things have changed in the last 10 years. If you are buying a firearm to gift to someone who can legally own and possess a firearm, then the answer to the question on the 4473 form, "are you buying the firearm for yourself" is yes, because you plan to use it as a gift from you. IANAL

This is my understanding as well.
I bought my wife a gun for Christmas a few years ago.

I believe (my opinion) that a straw purchase would be if someone gives you the money and you buy the gun for them (which would require you to make a false statement on the 4473).

I recall a story from a year or two ago where a LEO got in trouble for buying a Glock for a friend using his LE discount because the friend wrote him a check before the gun was purchased. That's a no-no. Any arrangement where the gun is purchased with the intention of "selling" it on to another person immediately after the purchase is a no-no, regardless of when the second - sale money changes hands.

IANAL. Just my opinion.

You're correct about the case of the LEO using his discount for his friend. He was convicted I believe.


What amount of time has to elapse before selling? I had a unique situation several months ago. Purchased my wife an XD9 sub compact for an EDC. She realized after a trip to the range that I was not there to load for her that she could not rack the slide herself. We sold the gun to a very good friend (CHL holder) and bought her another. Total time between sales was 2 weeks.

On another note, I have bought each of my kids and their spouses a gun of some sort over the years for Christmas.


I've never seen a certain amount of time quoted. It is more about the buyer's intent at time of purchase.


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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby BBYC » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:52 pm

TVGuy wrote:I've never seen a certain amount of time quoted. It is more about the buyer's intent at time of purchase.

:iagree: The LEO who got busted committed fraud. He acted as a middle man with the P2P sale arranged before he bought the gun from the FFL and lied on the 4473. Either it was a strawman purchase or he was in the business of dealing guns without having a FFL.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby Wysiwyg101 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:10 am

I wanted to say thank you for all the responses. My course seems much clearer now. From the responses I can go two different routes. If the seller is willing to sell to me he can and I can then gift it to my friend. The only money to change hands would be from me to the seller. Or, I and the seller can take it to an FFL dealer and fill out the Form 4473 and then after that I can gift it to my friend. Again, the only money to change hands would be from me to the seller and from me to the FFL dealer for his fee.

But, the gifting aspect is good to go as long as my friend does not give me any money for it. I'm good with that.

Thanks again for all the great advice.

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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby Keith B » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:11 am

As stated before, it is all about intent. If you actually intend to put it into your personal inventory or give as a gift without an exchange for money or other compensation for the gun, then it is legal. If you buy it with the intent to move it to another person in exchange for some compensation, then it is not legal.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby TVGuy » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:39 pm

All this and I'm just sorry we're not better friends! :biggrinjester:

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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby Maxwell » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:58 pm

Not quite Wysiwyg101. The operative term, as I remember from when I was selling firearms, is "Are you the actual transferee/buyer..." If he is not paying for the firearm he is not the buyer. Contrary to what has been said here, I was taught that the person paying has to fill out the 4473. I'm not saying this is correct, it's just what I was taught. I've even had to have the payer fill out the form when I knew he was giving the gun to the person next to him (DPS officers). Knowing it was a gift made it completely legal. Having someone pay for a gun someone else is filling out the form for was not allowed, even if I knew it was above board. If audited by the BATF I could not legally correlate one person's payment with another's 4473 form.

IANAL, but that was my understanding. If you really want to make this completely above board, buy the gun in your name, and then when gifted have the new owner fill out a 4473. That provided full transparency and a paper trail if the FFL is audited and it shows transfer of the firearm to the new, and actual owner.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby cyphertext » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:57 am

Maxwell wrote:Not quite Wysiwyg101. The operative term, as I remember from when I was selling firearms, is "Are you the actual transferee/buyer..." If he is not paying for the firearm he is not the buyer. Contrary to what has been said here, I was taught that the person paying has to fill out the 4473. I'm not saying this is correct, it's just what I was taught. I've even had to have the payer fill out the form when I knew he was giving the gun to the person next to him (DPS officers). Knowing it was a gift made it completely legal. Having someone pay for a gun someone else is filling out the form for was not allowed, even if I knew it was above board. If audited by the BATF I could not legally correlate one person's payment with another's 4473 form.


I was taught the same when I worked on the other side of the gun counter. All of those on here who say they paid but their daughter / son / whoever filled out the paperwork would not have been sold a gun by me, even if I believed them or knew them... one person paying with a different person filling out the paperwork is one of the signs of a straw purchase.


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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby cyphertext » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:01 am

bmwrdr wrote:
rotor wrote:
bmwrdr wrote:I would not buy a gun for somebody else with my name on the FFL transfer form. There is one question on the form which is worded like "do you buy the gun for yourself" which I answer with yes.
I agree with other forum members to pay for it but the firearm transfer has to be in the new owners name simply to abide the law and avoid any possible complications.
Selling a firearm I owned for a period of time is a different story but I would ask for a CHL/ LTC or if I know the buyer very well.

:tiphat:

If you look at the back of the 4473

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:
For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm


So, you are perfectly legal buying this as a gift if a 4473 is needed. No 4473 if buying from a private party.


That's right but I still would not go that route.


Why would you not follow the law and try to make the process more complicated? I swear gun owners are our own worst enemies when it comes to things like this... just read and follow the law!


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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby twomillenium » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 am

Back to the original post. If the sale is between two private parties who are residents in the state of Texas and the buyer can legally own a firearm then the use of a FFL is not needed! A FFL can be used for reasons to qualm paranoia, other than that, just buy the firearm and gift it to your friend, who can also legally own and possess a firearm.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby Liberty » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:22 am

cyphertext wrote:
I was taught the same when I worked on the other side of the gun counter. All of those on here who say they paid but their daughter / son / whoever filled out the paperwork would not have been sold a gun by me, even if I believed them or knew them... one person paying with a different person filling out the paperwork is one of the signs of a straw purchase.

I was purchasing a couple of long guns at Acadamy a few months ago my wife was leaning over my shoulder and ensuring that I was filling out the form accurately and legibly. We were warned by the salesperson that if she continued to help me fill out the form that he would cancel the sale. Sheesh, as my wife, legally it's her money and her gun too.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby cyphertext » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:43 am

Liberty wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
I was taught the same when I worked on the other side of the gun counter. All of those on here who say they paid but their daughter / son / whoever filled out the paperwork would not have been sold a gun by me, even if I believed them or knew them... one person paying with a different person filling out the paperwork is one of the signs of a straw purchase.

I was purchasing a couple of long guns at Acadamy a few months ago my wife was leaning over my shoulder and ensuring that I was filling out the form accurately and legibly. We were warned by the salesperson that if she continued to help me fill out the form that he would cancel the sale. Sheesh, as my wife, legally it's her money and her gun too.


Yep... that is how the feds see it. You are the buyer, you are the one filling out the form. Have a question, read the back of the form for directions.

As far as the feds see it, it is not your wife's gun legally... let's say your wife was a restricted person because of a felony conviction. Under federal law, you may still own a gun. It is yours, not your wife's. You will have to take steps to insure that she does not have access or possession of it though.

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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby TVGuy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:31 pm

cyphertext wrote:
Liberty wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
I was taught the same when I worked on the other side of the gun counter. All of those on here who say they paid but their daughter / son / whoever filled out the paperwork would not have been sold a gun by me, even if I believed them or knew them... one person paying with a different person filling out the paperwork is one of the signs of a straw purchase.

I was purchasing a couple of long guns at Acadamy a few months ago my wife was leaning over my shoulder and ensuring that I was filling out the form accurately and legibly. We were warned by the salesperson that if she continued to help me fill out the form that he would cancel the sale. Sheesh, as my wife, legally it's her money and her gun too.


Yep... that is how the feds see it. You are the buyer, you are the one filling out the form. Have a question, read the back of the form for directions.

As far as the feds see it, it is not your wife's gun legally... let's say your wife was a restricted person because of a felony conviction. Under federal law, you may still own a gun. It is yours, not your wife's. You will have to take steps to insure that she does not have access or possession of it though.


I've actually heard the exact opposite when buying guns with my wife due to community property laws.


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