Straw Man Query

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Wysiwyg101
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Straw Man Query

Postby Wysiwyg101 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:26 am

As I understand it, the Straw Man law is where Person A gets Person B to purchase a firearm for them because Person A is no longer eligible to purchase a firearm. Then, Person B "sells" that firearm to Person A.

Here's the situation. I've got a friend who is eligible to purchase a firearm. He is legally allowed to do so. However, I want to purchase a firearm either from a private party (no 4473) or from an FFL to give to my friend as a gift. He's gotten me some very nice work over the last couple of years and I think it would be a nice thing to do.

The private party is leery of violating the Straw Man laws.

What say you? Would I be violating the Straw Man laws to buy, as a gift, a firearm for my friend with no thought of recompense from him?

Thanks for any and all responses to my query.

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n5wmk
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby n5wmk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:45 am

Since he's eligible and legally able to purchase the firearm, and he knows you're giving it to him as a gift, why don't you take him to your FFL, you pay for it and the FFL uses his info on the paperwork? I did that with my daughter last year - I bought her a Springfield XDs 9 for Christmas. We met at Frisco Gun Club - I paid for it and some ammo, and they guy at FGC completed all the paperwork using her info. Easy peasy....

Edit to add, if the private party is leery about the sale, see if he would be willing to work through an FFL for that private sale as well. He should be comfortable with that, I would think, and a transfer fee would only add $20-$30 to the transaction.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby OldCurlyWolf » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:52 am

n5wmk wrote:Since he's eligible and legally able to purchase the firearm, and he knows you're giving it to him as a gift, why don't you take him to your FFL, you pay for it and the FFL uses his info on the paperwork? I did that with my daughter last year - I bought her a Springfield XDs 9 for Christmas. We met at Frisco Gun Club - I paid for it and some ammo, and they guy at FGC completed all the paperwork using her info. Easy peasy....

Edit to add, if the private party is leery about the sale, see if he would be willing to work through an FFL for that private sale as well. He should be comfortable with that, I would think, and a transfer fee would only add $20-$30 to the transaction.


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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby Pawpaw » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:49 am

straw man
ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
1.
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
"her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
2.
a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.
"a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"


Straw Purchase. Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase." An illegal firearm purchase (straw purchase) is a federal crime.


Even the BATFE has said it is legal to buy a gun that you intend to gift (no money changes hands) to another, provided you reasonably believe the other would be allowed to purchase it on his own.

http://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Actual TRANSFEREE/buyer examples: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be prohibited). Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown buys the firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a gift (with no service or tangible thing of value provided by Mr. Black), Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However, the transferor/seller may not transfer a firearm to any person he/she knows or has reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), (n) or (x). EXCEPTION: If a person is picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, he/she is not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby rotor » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:08 am

Wysiwyg101 wrote:As I understand it, the Straw Man law is where Person A gets Person B to purchase a firearm for them because Person A is no longer eligible to purchase a firearm. Then, Person B "sells" that firearm to Person A.

Here's the situation. I've got a friend who is eligible to purchase a firearm. He is legally allowed to do so. However, I want to purchase a firearm either from a private party (no 4473) or from an FFL to give to my friend as a gift. He's gotten me some very nice work over the last couple of years and I think it would be a nice thing to do.

The private party is leery of violating the Straw Man laws.

What say you? Would I be violating the Straw Man laws to buy, as a gift, a firearm for my friend with no thought of recompense from him?

Thanks for any and all responses to my query.

I think it's an illegal purchase as described in your first paragraph even if person A was eligible to buy the firearm. If you fill out the paperwork (4473) knowing that you are buying for someone else and then selling to them even if they are eligible to buy it than it's a straw purchase. I believe this happened with someone that bought for a relative because he was able to get a discount and then was repaid by the other relative.

On the other hand, if you buy from a private party and you are legal to buy in Texas than no paperwork needs be done (bill of sale at your discretion) and you can gift to anyone that is legal to buy in Texas without paperwork or FFL. So, if you see something on texasguntrader from a private party and buy it and give it to your wife as long as you are both able to own a gun in Texas that is a legal transaction and not a straw purchase. If you buy it from a dealer than you do the 4473 and can gift it to your wife. Or gift it to your friend whom you said was legal.

As per usual, IANAL but that's my understanding of the law.

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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby bmwrdr » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:22 am

I would not buy a gun for somebody else with my name on the FFL transfer form. There is one question on the form which is worded like "do you buy the gun for yourself" which I answer with yes.
I agree with other forum members to pay for it but the firearm transfer has to be in the new owners name simply to abide the law and avoid any possible complications.
Selling a firearm I owned for a period of time is a different story but I would ask for a CHL/ LTC or if I know the buyer very well.

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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby rotor » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:39 am

bmwrdr wrote:I would not buy a gun for somebody else with my name on the FFL transfer form. There is one question on the form which is worded like "do you buy the gun for yourself" which I answer with yes.
I agree with other forum members to pay for it but the firearm transfer has to be in the new owners name simply to abide the law and avoid any possible complications.
Selling a firearm I owned for a period of time is a different story but I would ask for a CHL/ LTC or if I know the buyer very well.

:tiphat:

If you look at the back of the 4473

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:
For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm


So, you are perfectly legal buying this as a gift if a 4473 is needed. No 4473 if buying from a private party.

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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby Pariah3j » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:04 pm

If the private seller is the one having the hangup or questions if it is a Straw Buyer purchase, offer to go through an FFL as others have suggested, this would cover the seller and only add a small fee to the price.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby jmorris » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:40 pm

rotor wrote:....
I think it's an illegal purchase as described in your first paragraph even if person A was eligible to buy the firearm. If you fill out the paperwork (4473) knowing that you are buying for someone else and then selling to them even if they are eligible to buy it than it's a straw purchase. I believe this happened with someone that bought for a relative because he was able to get a discount and then was repaid by the other relative.
.....


He wasn't charged with making a straw purchase, it was for knowingly falsifying information “material to the lawfulness of the sale” of a firearm by an FFL and knowingly falsifying information that an FFL is required to keep in records mandated by the GCA because he answered Yes to 11a. The ATF readily conceded that both individuals were eligible.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby twomillenium » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:44 pm

Unless things have changed in the last 10 years. If you are buying a firearm to gift to someone who can legally own and possess a firearm, then the answer to the question on the 4473 form, "are you buying the firearm for yourself" is yes, because you plan to use it as a gift from you. IANAL
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby der Teufel » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:11 pm

Had a similar issue a while back. Wanted to buy a rifle for a friend. Solution was to give the friend a "gift certificate", and then have them go fill out the forms and take possession of the rifle.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby bmwrdr » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:23 pm

rotor wrote:
bmwrdr wrote:I would not buy a gun for somebody else with my name on the FFL transfer form. There is one question on the form which is worded like "do you buy the gun for yourself" which I answer with yes.
I agree with other forum members to pay for it but the firearm transfer has to be in the new owners name simply to abide the law and avoid any possible complications.
Selling a firearm I owned for a period of time is a different story but I would ask for a CHL/ LTC or if I know the buyer very well.

:tiphat:

If you look at the back of the 4473

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:
For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm


So, you are perfectly legal buying this as a gift if a 4473 is needed. No 4473 if buying from a private party.


That's right but I still would not go that route.
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby puma guy » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:54 pm

Untold numbers (thousands and thousands I would venture) of firearms are sold with the purpose of gifting every year, especially at Christmas and that was taken into account by the ATF, so it's not illegal to do so; unless the purchaser is aware that the person who would receive it as a gift is ineligible to possess a firearm. Santa's surprises would be spoiled if you had to take the giftee to the FFL . :???:
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby AndyC » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:18 pm

:iagree:
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Re: Straw Man Query

Postby RoyGBiv » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:44 am

twomillenium wrote:Unless things have changed in the last 10 years. If you are buying a firearm to gift to someone who can legally own and possess a firearm, then the answer to the question on the 4473 form, "are you buying the firearm for yourself" is yes, because you plan to use it as a gift from you. IANAL

This is my understanding as well.
I bought my wife a gun for Christmas a few years ago.

I believe (my opinion) that a straw purchase would be if someone gives you the money and you buy the gun for them (which would require you to make a false statement on the 4473).

I recall a story from a year or two ago where a LEO got in trouble for buying a Glock for a friend using his LE discount because the friend wrote him a check before the gun was purchased. That's a no-no. Any arrangement where the gun is purchased with the intention of "selling" it on to another person immediately after the purchase is a no-no, regardless of when the second - sale money changes hands.

IANAL. Just my opinion.
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