Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by Liberty » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:17 pm

I don't understand how this is different than the AndyC build or the Sig offering. Perhaps they are providing a means of strapping the rear stock to ones wrist?
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by SRO1911 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:54 pm

If it's a smooth bore, it becomes an SBS or AOW... Since its made to be fired from the shoulder.
My guess is fire control makes it not a rifle, but that's just speculation.
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by bigtek » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:28 pm

SRO1911 wrote:My guess is fire control makes it not a rifle, but that's just speculation.
That's my guess too. Franken Armory is known for their binary trigger and the pic has a big red warning label like with their binary trigger. My guess is it's a half-binary trigger that fires when released but not when initially pressed.

Even with the ATF letter it may still run afoul of state laws.
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by srothstein » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:35 pm

ELB wrote:Is there another way to carve the inside of a barrel that stabilizes bullets but is not technically/legally "rifling"?
I never thought about it before, but I would bet a barrel that was not round and had no grooves to the spiraling could be argued as not rifled. Think a Glock octagonal barrel as an example. I wonder how the law actually defines rifling. Something to look up there when I get time.
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:38 pm

ELB wrote:So a guy on Soldiersystems.net says he called the factory and asked if it was a smoothbore, and they said no, but wouldn't cough up anything more than that.

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/01/11/fr ... tax-stamp/

Lotta speculation there on the trigger system. I don't understand the trigger business and how it plays with law and ATF rulings. so I guess I will just have to wait and see.
Has anyone noted yet that all the pictures only show the left side of the firearm? ;-) Also, if you zoom way in on the orange bit where the selector is, it looks like the rearward selection is labeled “Primary” (or maybe “Binary”). What could that mean?

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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by TEX » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:56 pm

Never really understood the lust for short barreled 5.56 other than the fact that it is easier to maneuver with. You give up velocity and the signature is really, really loud unless suppressed. Seems to me that this would be better suited as a 9mm, 45ACP or 10mm. If another action is required before each shot such as flipping safety off and back on, I don't know that this would change its designation - a single action pistol has to be cocked each time, but it is still a pistol. If it is rifling, does the the entire barrel have to rifled to be considered a rifle or can it have 10 inches of freebore and sidestep the rifled definition - and still provide bullet stabilization. Remember that a football only has to have about 1/4 (or less) of circumference spin to stabilize. Has the recently ruling by BATF on pistol stocks being allowed to be shouldered rendered an entirely different view and mindset on the part of the BATF for stocks in general. Are they playing nice because Trump has been elected. Really curious as to how they are doing this and if it is not patent-able, then many other manufacture will probably follow.
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by DocV » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:55 pm

I also see the word "Binary" on the red placard. The Franklin Armory binary trigger fires both when the trigger is squeezed and then fires again on trigger release. They also made a trigger variant where the gun only fires on trigger release. If their NFA 11.5" is using their standard BFS then the non-NFA must come from some other feature. :headscratch
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:06 pm

DocV wrote:I also see the word "Binary" on the red placard. The Franklin Armory binary trigger fires both when the trigger is squeezed and then fires again on trigger release. They also made a trigger variant where the gun only fires on trigger release. If their NFA 11.5" is using their standard BFS then the non-NFA must come from some other feature. :headscratch
My thought exactly. They’ve been selling the binary trigger for a little while now.

BTW, mea culpa in my 2nd post about halfway down page 1...... I misspoke when I mentioned M1A rifles.....I was thinking of Fulton Armory, not Franklin Amory when I wrote that.
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by ELB » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:39 pm

I'm pulling this from another forum that pulled it form yet another forum that I can't find, so caveat emptor and all that, but:
Originally Posted by 26 USC 5845
(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.


(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

It looks like they saw the difference where "function" is used in section (b) for machineguns and "pull" is used in section (c) for rifles. Therefore, someone could take a virgin receiver, put a binary trigger in it, and then attach a stock and a short barrel. A machinegun is more than one bullet per trigger function. A rifle or SBR is one bullet per trigger pull. A binary trigger means the firearm shoots one bullet per trigger function but two bullets per trigger pull, so it's neither a machinegun nor rifle, just a "firearm." Since it was built off a virgin receiver then it doesn't meet the "remade" part of the SBR definition either.
Interesting.
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 pm

ELB wrote:I'm pulling this from another forum that pulled it form yet another forum that I can't find, so caveat emptor and all that, but:
Originally Posted by 26 USC 5845
(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.


(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

It looks like they saw the difference where "function" is used in section (b) for machineguns and "pull" is used in section (c) for rifles. Therefore, someone could take a virgin receiver, put a binary trigger in it, and then attach a stock and a short barrel. A machinegun is more than one bullet per trigger function. A rifle or SBR is one bullet per trigger pull. A binary trigger means the firearm shoots one bullet per trigger function but two bullets per trigger pull, so it's neither a machinegun nor rifle, just a "firearm." Since it was built off a virgin receiver then it doesn't meet the "remade" part of the SBR definition either.
Interesting.
What does that mean, “virgin receiver”?
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by ELB » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:18 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
ELB wrote:I'm pulling this from another forum that pulled it form yet another forum that I can't find, so caveat emptor and all that, but:
Originally Posted by 26 USC 5845
(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.


(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

It looks like they saw the difference where "function" is used in section (b) for machineguns and "pull" is used in section (c) for rifles. Therefore, someone could take a virgin receiver, put a binary trigger in it, and then attach a stock and a short barrel. A machinegun is more than one bullet per trigger function. A rifle or SBR is one bullet per trigger pull. A binary trigger means the firearm shoots one bullet per trigger function but two bullets per trigger pull, so it's neither a machinegun nor rifle, just a "firearm." Since it was built off a virgin receiver then it doesn't meet the "remade" part of the SBR definition either.
Interesting.
What does that mean, “virgin receiver”?
Brand new, was not bulit into a rifle or a pistol initially.

Kinda like how the Mossberg Shockwave receivers. Those receivers were never fitted at the factory with a shoulder stock or a 18" barrel, so they were never "shotgun" receivers, and this the Shockwave is not a SBS, since it is not made from a shotgun.
Last edited by ELB on Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by Jusme » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:19 pm

Interesting. Not that this would be something I would necessarily want, I like the idea, that the ATF is starting to relax some restrictions on NFA prohibited firearms. Along with the recent amendment in Texas law, saying, basically, that if it's legal at the federal level, then it's legal here, it looks like, with certain " work arounds", more manufacturers will be able to sell the type of firearms that never should have been prohibited in the first place. With more of these types of guns being sold, it will make it harder, for future leftists to demonstrate that any cosmetic features, make a particular firearm more dangerous. JMHO
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:30 pm

Here’s an interesting look at it from Recoil Web with some more detailed analysis, including the speculation that in the end, ATF may not approve production of the gun: http://www.recoilweb.com/has-franklin-a ... 32912.html
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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by earlwb » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:43 pm

It may be using an oval barrel like that Russian gun that was made for Russians recently. They use an oval barrel that has a twist to it to impart the spin. it isn't good enough for precision accuracy. It would work for short ranges. But with a short barrel the gun is more for indoor shooting like in self defense at home maybe.

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Re: Franklin Armory coming out with non-NFA 11.5” AR variant

Post by CleverNickname » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:32 pm

ELB wrote:I'm pulling this from another forum that pulled it form yet another forum that I can't find, so caveat emptor and all that, but:
Originally Posted by 26 USC 5845
(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.


(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

It looks like they saw the difference where "function" is used in section (b) for machineguns and "pull" is used in section (c) for rifles. Therefore, someone could take a virgin receiver, put a binary trigger in it, and then attach a stock and a short barrel. A machinegun is more than one bullet per trigger function. A rifle or SBR is one bullet per trigger pull. A binary trigger means the firearm shoots one bullet per trigger function but two bullets per trigger pull, so it's neither a machinegun nor rifle, just a "firearm." Since it was built off a virgin receiver then it doesn't meet the "remade" part of the SBR definition either.
Interesting.
Huh, I didn't know there were other goons here.

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