child bundled into a car - what do you do?

[israel67]

Hi guys.. 'haven't been on the forum of late. Still trying to work towards educator certification for the Great State of Texas. I'll get there..

Anyway, I was thinking of my nieces the other day - the two who live in Amarillo, and remembering when they were growing up here in Europe, and I was so paranoid when out with them, terrified that someone would harm a single hair on their head, that I refused for whatever reason to let go of their hand. Restroom visits were dealt with by a female relative or if I was out with them alone, I'd ask a suitably 'respectable' middle aged or elderly woman to accompany them to answer the call of nature. I recall one year when my father (ז׳׳ל) and I took the elder girl to an RAF open day, and I held her hand for like nine hours solid. When I went to the men's, I made my father swear that he would not let go of her hand under any circumstances. That anything untoward should happen to them gave me sleepless nights, and still does - even though they're in their twenties now and one's married.

Anyway, all this soppy stuff is nice an' all, but a scenario came to mind.

You're walking along the street when you see a child being grabbed and dragged screaming towards a waiting car. Now, I know that SOP for non-LEO is 'to be a good witness' and call in the cavalry. But irrespective to the risk to myself and even if the child isn't mine, there is no way on G-d's earth that I am going to stand by and watch harm come to a child, if by my actions I could possibly prevent it. I think of how grateful I'd have been for any hypothetical intervention by a passerby, if the nightmare scenario had come to pass all those years ago (hasvé shalom..)...

So what do you do?

I'd draw on the bad guy and tell him to release the child. But what do you do if he igores you? He's not armed (that you can see), and has made no threat against you personally. He just looks at you and (probably reasoning, 'he won't shoot an unarmed man') dumps the child in the car and walks towards the open driver's door.

What do you do?

[FlynJay]

Best answer would be to call 911. You don't know if the kid is really in trouble or if he is just throwing a fit.
Call the police, be a good witness, follow at a good distance if possible giving the dispatcher constant updates as to where they are.

[jbirds1210]

Immediately jump into their business.....make the phone call to the police and leave the gun in the holster. If someone snatched my child, I would definitely wouldn't want someone standing there quietly watching. I agree that there is absolutely no way to know exactly what is going on after only observing for a couple of seconds.

Just my opinion.

Jason

[Excaliber]

Best answer would be to call 911. You don't know if the kid is really in trouble or if he is just throwing a fit.
Call the police, be a good witness, follow at a good distance if possible giving the dispatcher constant updates as to where they are.

Taking a cellphone video of the incident and a pic of the vehicle that clearly shows the tag number would be real helpful too. They could be emailed to the police to help them put out a very accurate alert if one was needed. The tag would also give a hint of where the vehicle might be headed - all good stuff when you're trying to find someone.

Kids often think of this more often than adults do, and their photos have been instrumental in quickly solving some nasty crimes.

If you're not quite sure how that camera thing on your phone works, now might be a good time to look back at the manual and see how easy it really is. Photos beat the heck out of answering with um, ah, etc. or "it might have been 610-ABH, or 601-AHB, or something like that" when asked if you noted the tag number and vehicle description.

[Keith B]

I would do exactly what this lady did http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 83&t=26956" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You intervene and question the person and if something is amiss, they will usually flee.

[Purplehood]

Once you start taking pics with your cellphone and then start making a verbal report to 911, the guy is either going to stop what he is doing and try to give you a reasonable explanation, or exercise the fight or flee reflex.
In any event immediate action is required and the guy has to know that you are taking it.

[bdickens]

It depends.

[C-dub]

My wife encountered a situation like this a few years ago. My wife does not have a CHL.

A woman was grabbing a screaming 10-12y girl by the arm trying to drag her into her car. My wife stopped and asked what was going on. The woman told her to go away andmind her own business. The girl kept screaming, "Don't let her take me!" My wife called 911 and the police showed up pretty quick. By this time 3-4 others were there preventing this woman from taking off with the child.

Turns out, it was her daughter. Mom claims she said something to her after getting out of the car and mom wanted her back to take her home for the day. She was supposedly dropping her off several blocks away from her school to walk the rest of the way.

CPS eventually got involved and said they performed visits to the home and nothing else became of it.

My wife was distraught for several weeks over this even though she realized there was nothing more she could have done. She was frustrated that the authorities couldn't do anything more. Since she was the girls' mother she could do anything she wanted short of actual abuse.

[seamusTX]

Final report on the incident at 3160 Texas Avenue on 1-18-2010

Statement of the subject, given under oath with legal counsel:

At about 4 p.m. on that day, I was picking up my 3-year-old son from day care at Happy Tots. He threw a tantrum, lying in the middle of the street on Texas Avenue. I picked him up and began to put him into my car. A bearded man with a foreign accent that I had never seen before asked me what I was doing. I told him that I was getting my son to a safe location and to mind his business.

I put my son into the car, where he continued to scream and pound on the windows. You know how toddlers can be.

I turned around and saw that this man had a pistol in his hand. I ran to the back of the car to draw fire away from my son. Then I drew my sidearm and placed two shots in the man's torso and one in his head, as I have been trained to do. I saw that he was no longer a threat, and then I called 911.

The medical examiner's report stated that the deceased had died from profuse bleeding when the pulmonary artery was severed by a .45 caliber gunshot wound. Injuries to the lungs and brain from the same weapon were secondary.

The case was submitted to the grand jury without charges. The grand jury returned a no bill. The district attorney and the police chief agreed that the case is closed as justified self defense.

- Jim

[israel67]

"bearded"???

[seamusTX]

Leviticus 19:27, in the English-language versions of the Bible.

Don't take it personally. I have a beard.

- Jim

[HighVelocity]

Very tough question. I am reading the responses with great interest. As for my own response, I'm not even going to try to tell you what I'll do because it is unknown. I can tell you that I will do something if this scenario ever plays out in my presence but the action I take will be determined at that moment based on the actual event.

[C-dub]

Before I read the OP and posted my earlier response, just based on the title, I thought you had seen a child bundled up and left UNATTENDED in a car.

However, just like HV said, it will depend on the circumstances at the time and the vibe I get. 911 will be called, but anything more than that will depend on what the person is doing, how the child is reacting, and that vibe.

[bryang]

Blah, another one of these. I'll copy and paste my response to the other topics about the same thing:

Everyone draws their own line somewhere. My personal opinion on helping a 3rd person that is not a part of my family is this:

I will never place myself in harms way to help a 3rd person unless they are literally about to die in front me.


See a screaming kid being dragged into a car by an adult? You are darned sure it's a kidnapping, you need to save them!

Guess what... You just drew your handgun on the kid's father. The child actually has a mental issue that causes them to have angry outbursts. The parent is just trying to get them out of public until they calm down.


Hear a husband next door yelling and screaming at his wife, and thought you heard things being thrown? You are darned sure the wife is in immediate danger and about to get a severe beating, and there's no time for the cops to get there!

Guess what... You come through their door, draw your gun and order the husband to the floor, but the wife freaks out and forces you out the door and calls the police on YOU! She may have a loser husband that beats her every chance he gets, but it's HER loser husband. She explains away the bruises and presses charges on you instead. Think it would never happen? Just watch Cops.


I could type 50 more scenarios here, but the bottom line is in every single one, you lose.

It is not your job, nor your responsibility, to save others. Please by stingy with who you decide you need to save. It will keep you out of jail.

Excellent advice!

-geo