Close call with Glock

So that others may learn.

Moderators: Keith B, Charles L. Cotton, carlson1


WTR
Senior Member
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby WTR » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:31 am

tbryanh wrote:You need to be safe from the gun, and you need the gun to make you safe.

1. To be safe from the gun, you need to avoid accidental and negligent discharges.

2. For the gun to make you safe, it needs to fire when you pull the trigger.

Thumb safeties can be excellent when it comes to 1, but they can cause problems when it comes to 2.

If you ever need to fire your weapon in self defence, chances are your going to be nervous and jittery with an overdose of adrenalin pumping through your system. You might pull the trigger without taking the safety off first, and when the gun doesn't fire, your mind might freeze up for a split second making you unable to figure out what the problem is in time to protect yourself.

This might sound far fetched, but its not. While I have not been in any gunfights, I have driven a car for many decades. On a few occasions when I tried to stop the car, I hit the gas pedal instead of the brake. I knew there was a problem, but I didn't know what the cause of the problem was. My foot was stuck to the gas pedal, and my mind froze up for a split second. Luckily my mind snapped out of it in time to move my foot to the brake and stop the car. Similar things can happen when deploying guns that have thumb safeties.

If the gun doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, the gun is not a safe gun.


We obviously have different understandings as to what a safety on a gun is designed for.


Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts: 2455
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:42 am

To use my gun, I need to draw it from the holster, keep my finger off the trigger, take up my sight picture, put my finger on the trigger, and pull the trigger. If it has a safety, I also need to ensure that my method of drawing the gun and taking a grip deactivates that safety. I want to make sure that I can do all of these things naturally, and without thinking, while I am in a high stress situation. So I practice. Ad nauseum. I am confident that when I take my grip during the draw, my thumb will come down and apply pressure to the top of the safety before coming to rest on top of the safety lever. The reason I am confident is because that is exactly where it goes every single time I draw my gun. And every single time I take a firing grip at the range even if I am not practicing my draw, even if I am using a gun that does not have a thumb safety.

I would no sooner "forget" to deactivate the safety than I would "forget" to take the gun out of the holster, or to acquire a sight picture, or even to pull the trigger. There is actually a greater chance of forgetting to do any of those other things because they are things that I actively do as opposed to my thumb position which is a natural result of gripping the gun in my hand.
Ding dong, the witch is dead

User avatar

stever1950
Junior Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:50 pm

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby stever1950 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:16 pm

Excaliber wrote:
Jumping Frog wrote:
Excaliber wrote:Never again - no nylon holsters for this kid.

My only use for a nylon holster is serving as a glovebox holster. I keep it in the glovebox. If I need to go inside someone disarmed, I'll draw from my IWB and put it in the glovebox holster.


That makes sense and is a good use for a nylon holster. It keeps the gun from getting scratched up while banging around in the glovebox.

I keep an Uncle Mike's with a spare mag anchored with velcro in the center console. It stays when I pull the gun, but can be removed easily if I change cars.
With the right pair of readers the front sights are always in focus.
NRA member, past and present :patriot:

User avatar

Liberty
Senior Member
Posts: 5325
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Galveston
Contact:

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby Liberty » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:41 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:To use my gun, I need to draw it from the holster, keep my finger off the trigger, take up my sight picture, put my finger on the trigger, and pull the trigger. If it has a safety, I also need to ensure that my method of drawing the gun and taking a grip deactivates that safety. I want to make sure that I can do all of these things naturally, and without thinking, while I am in a high stress situation. So I practice. Ad nauseum. I am confident that when I take my grip during the draw, my thumb will come down and apply pressure to the top of the safety before coming to rest on top of the safety lever. The reason I am confident is because that is exactly where it goes every single time I draw my gun. And every single time I take a firing grip at the range even if I am not practicing my draw, even if I am using a gun that does not have a thumb safety.

I would no sooner "forget" to deactivate the safety than I would "forget" to take the gun out of the holster, or to acquire a sight picture, or even to pull the trigger. There is actually a greater chance of forgetting to do any of those other things because they are things that I actively do as opposed to my thumb position which is a natural result of gripping the gun in my hand.

The fly in the ointment with a plan such as this is that Some safeties snick up to go off, and some down to go off. My 3 carry guns all work the same way snick up to fire. This is the main reason I will not own a 1911. If someone uses and trains with a 1911, and decides to carry a Beretta, any immediate call to use the available handgun could be a disaster.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy


treadlightly
Senior Member
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:17 pm

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby treadlightly » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:56 pm

Liberty wrote:The fly in the ointment with a plan such as this is that Some safeties snick up to go off, and some down to go off. My 3 carry guns all work the same way snick up to fire. This is the main reason I will not own a 1911. If someone uses and trains with a 1911, and decides to carry a Beretta, any immediate call to use the available handgun could be a disaster.


This, actually, is an anti-safety argument I can understand. Up-to-fire, to me, would be a problem. If it's natural for a shooter, that's a fine thing. It's not for me.

I grip a 1911 with my thumb on top of the safety and it never moves from there. It's not an extra step to select "fire", it's an extra step to leave it in (cough) "safe" until the muzzle is downrange of my weak hand. That's the step I practice, the phase of the draw where I consciously don't take the gun off safe.

Taking the gun off safety is very natural to me, as long as it's down-to-fire and a nice comfortable thumb rest.

Up-to-fire, to my spinal cord, sounds like extra motion. When the hand is increasing its grip on the gun the thumb naturally wants to come down.

I get this anti-safety argument and I never figured I'd say that. I'm wired for down-to-fire with a method that requires no thumb choreography. Up-to-fire, or a slide mounted safety lever I couldn't ride all the time - not consistent with my wiring. I wouldn't carry a gun built that way because I'm not built, muscle memory-wise, in a compatible manner.


WTR
Senior Member
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby WTR » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:57 pm

:iagree:

I don't own a semi that doesn't have a downward safety off movement. Clicking the safety off is part of my addressing the pistol.


1911 10MM
Member
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:59 am

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby 1911 10MM » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:15 am

tbryanh wrote:You need to be safe from the gun, and you need the gun to make you safe.

1. To be safe from the gun, you need to avoid accidental and negligent discharges.

2. For the gun to make you safe, it needs to fire when you pull the trigger.

Thumb safeties can be excellent when it comes to 1, but they can cause problems when it comes to 2.

If you ever need to fire your weapon in self defence, chances are your going to be nervous and jittery with an overdose of adrenalin pumping through your system. You might pull the trigger without taking the safety off first, and when the gun doesn't fire, your mind might freeze up for a split second making you unable to figure out what the problem is in time to protect yourself.

This might sound far fetched, but its not. While I have not been in any gunfights, I have driven a car for many decades. On a few occasions when I tried to stop the car, I hit the gas pedal instead of the brake. I knew there was a problem, but I didn't know what the cause of the problem was. My foot was stuck to the gas pedal, and my mind froze up for a split second. Luckily my mind snapped out of it in time to move my foot to the brake and stop the car. Similar things can happen when deploying guns that have thumb safeties.

If the gun doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, the gun is not a safe gun.


Did you remove the gas pedal from your car?

User avatar

Liberty
Senior Member
Posts: 5325
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Galveston
Contact:

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby Liberty » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:03 am

treadlightly wrote:
Liberty wrote:The fly in the ointment with a plan such as this is that Some safeties snick up to go off, and some down to go off. My 3 carry guns all work the same way snick up to fire. This is the main reason I will not own a 1911. If someone uses and trains with a 1911, and decides to carry a Beretta, any immediate call to use the available handgun could be a disaster.


This, actually, is an anti-safety argument I can understand. Up-to-fire, to me, would be a problem. If it's natural for a shooter, that's a fine thing. It's not for me.

I grip a 1911 with my thumb on top of the safety and it never moves from there. It's not an extra step to select "fire", it's an extra step to leave it in (cough) "safe" until the muzzle is downrange of my weak hand. That's the step I practice, the phase of the draw where I consciously don't take the gun off safe.

Taking the gun off safety is very natural to me, as long as it's down-to-fire and a nice comfortable thumb rest.

Up-to-fire, to my spinal cord, sounds like extra motion. When the hand is increasing its grip on the gun the thumb naturally wants to come down.

I get this anti-safety argument and I never figured I'd say that. I'm wired for down-to-fire with a method that requires no thumb choreography. Up-to-fire, or a slide mounted safety lever I couldn't ride all the time - not consistent with my wiring. I wouldn't carry a gun built that way because I'm not built, muscle memory-wise, in a compatible manner.

I don't think either way is more natural. It is all on what we are used to and have trained for. My guns have the safety on the slide. higher up than on a 1911 or similar safeties. Snicking it up with my thumb has become very natural and automatic on the draw, done before even clearing leather. I don't think that slide mounted or body mounted is the naturally better way, It's all on what you are used to and what you train for.

The only thing that really bothers be though is that my prefered style of gun is becoming obsolete. That of the DA/SA hammer fired handgun with slide mounted safety has lost favor, to striker fired junk. and 1911 jewelboxes.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy

User avatar

mloamiller
Senior Member
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:49 pm
Location: Grand Prairie, TX

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby mloamiller » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:31 am

C-dub wrote: ... when I have to disarm I just remove the entire holster with the gun in it and put it in the center console. I rarely take the gun out of the holster when not at a range or at home.

:iagree:
This is why I use a paddle holster, rather than one that attaches directly to the belt. The paddle holster prevents the scenario in the OP.
LTC Instructor
NRA Pistol Instructor, RSO
IDPA SO

User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts: 11585
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby C-dub » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:23 am

mloamiller wrote:
C-dub wrote: ... when I have to disarm I just remove the entire holster with the gun in it and put it in the center console. I rarely take the gun out of the holster when not at a range or at home.

:iagree:
This is why I use a paddle holster, rather than one that attaches directly to the belt. The paddle holster prevents the scenario in the OP.

Due to switching holsters last year to a Safariland 7TS 7377, I discovered that I did not like the cant of the 7378 holster I wanted. Ordering the 7378 also get's one the belt slide option. I changed to that, a 7377, which has the more straight up draw angle I like better. Although I don't use a paddle holster any longer, if I must disarm before going inside or before going to bed, I still remove the entire holster from my belt. I've found that it isn't all that much more difficult.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.

User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts: 1076
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby oljames3 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:42 am

C-dub wrote:
mloamiller wrote:
C-dub wrote: ... when I have to disarm I just remove the entire holster with the gun in it and put it in the center console. I rarely take the gun out of the holster when not at a range or at home.

:iagree:
This is why I use a paddle holster, rather than one that attaches directly to the belt. The paddle holster prevents the scenario in the OP.

Due to switching holsters last year to a Safariland 7TS 7377, I discovered that I did not like the cant of the 7378 holster I wanted. Ordering the 7378 also get's one the belt slide option. I changed to that, a 7377, which has the more straight up draw angle I like better. Although I don't use a paddle holster any longer, if I must disarm before going inside or before going to bed, I still remove the entire holster from my belt. I've found that it isn't all that much more difficult.

I also use the 7TS ALS 7377. I added the QLS which allows me to quickly remove/attach the holstered pistol from/to my belt without undoing the belt. I use the QLS 22 receiver plate because it is a even more secure than the QLS 21, which Safariland rates as Level 1 Retention (TM).
http://www.safariland.com/products/holsters-and-gear/holster-systems/mounting-systems/quick-attachment-systems/quick-locking-system-kit-23136.html#start=1
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1


patterson
Senior Member
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:51 pm

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby patterson » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:16 pm

Liberty wrote:
treadlightly wrote:
Liberty wrote:The fly in the ointment with a plan such as this is that Some safeties snick up to go off, and some down to go off. My 3 carry guns all work the same way snick up to fire. This is the main reason I will not own a 1911. If someone uses and trains with a 1911, and decides to carry a Beretta, any immediate call to use the available handgun could be a disaster.


This, actually, is an anti-safety argument I can understand. Up-to-fire, to me, would be a problem. If it's natural for a shooter, that's a fine thing. It's not for me.

I grip a 1911 with my thumb on top of the safety and it never moves from there. It's not an extra step to select "fire", it's an extra step to leave it in (cough) "safe" until the muzzle is downrange of my weak hand. That's the step I practice, the phase of the draw where I consciously don't take the gun off safe.

Taking the gun off safety is very natural to me, as long as it's down-to-fire and a nice comfortable thumb rest.

Up-to-fire, to my spinal cord, sounds like extra motion. When the hand is increasing its grip on the gun the thumb naturally wants to come down.

I get this anti-safety argument and I never figured I'd say that. I'm wired for down-to-fire with a method that requires no thumb choreography. Up-to-fire, or a slide mounted safety lever I couldn't ride all the time - not consistent with my wiring. I wouldn't carry a gun built that way because I'm not built, muscle memory-wise, in a compatible manner.

I don't think either way is more natural. It is all on what we are used to and have trained for. My guns have the safety on the slide. higher up than on a 1911 or similar safeties. Snicking it up with my thumb has become very natural and automatic on the draw, done before even clearing leather. I don't think that slide mounted or body mounted is the naturally better way, It's all on what you are used to and what you train for.

The only thing that really bothers be though is that my prefered style of gun is becoming obsolete. That of the DA/SA hammer fired handgun with slide mounted safety has lost favor, to striker fired junk. and 1911 jewelboxes.

There are still quality firearms out there that offer DA/SA options , HKs and Sigs are some of the pistols out there


SA-TX
Senior Member
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:16 pm
Location: Ellis County now; adios Dallas!
Contact:

Re: Close call with Glock

Postby SA-TX » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:49 am

Or for something Glock-like but with a grip safety -- which should have prevented an AD in the situation you presented -- look at a Springfield Armory XD model. I like mine.

SA-TX


Return to “Never Again!!”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest