Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposure

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Re: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposure

#31

Post by Keith B »

chasfm11 wrote:
Keith B wrote: Appearance is one of the major factors that will definitely sway a LEO. It is basically all they have to go on when making a stop before they get to interact with the subject. While they may not be prejudice overall, first appearances are everything to everyone. We all judge someone we see when them approach us. That is what makes us go on alert or stay in condition yellow.

This very reason is why I state you should stay in your vehicle with the weapon concealed, and when they approach make sure you let them know you have a CHL and are armed. In Texas, you must do this when asked for ID by law, so it is smart to do it as soon as possible to let the officer you you are forthcoming and are not trying to hide anything.
In general, I agree with what you are saying but seek a couple of clarifications.

1. Judging only by appearance is profiling. While I understand, at some level, the need to do that, it can have the result of discrimination if it is allowed to go too far. Since it has the potential for abuse, it is an area where constant emphasis by departments should be placed. To me, there is a big difference between me using Situational Awareness to keep an eye on those who appear to be more of a threat to me than others and a LEO using profiling to take actions against citizens. One is passive, the other is aggressive. What say you?

2. When taking action, one's motives are sometimes displayed. The officer in this case, I believe, betrayed some of his underlying thought process and it wasn't for the better of himself or his fellow officers. If he had methodically just taken control of the situation, even to the point of putting the man on the ground and handcuffing him, I would have been a lot more OK with it. The threats to shoot an otherwise compliant citizen and his foray into abusive language are as much about "appearance" as anything that the citizen did.
We all judge on appearance, voice, posture, etc of others when talking to them. The key is to not overreact as this officer did, but to put the individual things into your total evaluation process and use them as appropriate.

Profiling is a way overused term and I don't like it. Profiling, as referenced by most, in itself is wrong in the meaning it is the only thing that is used to assume guilt of an individual, i.e. he looks to be of middle-eastern descent so he must be a terrorist trying to get on the plane. This is wrong. The Israeli's use an evaluation and questioning process at their airports that take all factors into consideration when their passengers are interviewed before a flight. It works extremely well and they have had no issues in many years.

A LEO must also use these types of evaluations when they confront a subject. If they only rely on one aspect, then they are likely to overreact (as this one did), or they will miss other key factors and end up in trouble.
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Re: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposure

#32

Post by RoyGBiv »

gigag04 wrote:I inform LEOs I'm armed when I am stopped, and I appreciate the same courtesy.
First.. Thanks for this post and for sharing your insight.

Adding my $0.02, I inform LEO's even when I'm not armed. On the 2 occasions I've done so (1 TS and 1 other I'll get to in a sec) I feel its only helped the situation. If I'm a LEO doing a TS, I'd feel better getting that info up front. It would definitely serve to lessen my suspicions.

One day this weekend, I walked with my kid over to the neighbors a few houses down. We're feeding the neighbors cats while they're out of town. I wait outside talking with another neighbor when I hear the alarm go off inside the house. Failure to disable it in time. Entered the wrong code. Long story short, the local LE shows up about 5 minutes later (good response time, I thought). He was pretty calm, asked some questions, asked for ID. I assumed he'd run my ID so I handed my DL to him and told him "I have a CHL but I'm not armed at the moment". He said "Why not?" :thumbs2:

Obviously that encounter ended well. ;-)
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Re: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposure

#33

Post by Vol Texan »

chasfm11 wrote:
It would be interesting to see if a complaint was filed on this one and what the disposition of that complaint was.
I believe this happened in 2009, and all charges were dropped: http://www.clerk.citrus.fl.us/courts/case/16888028b.

I don't know if there was a law requiring him to inform the officer back then, or if there is one now, but either way, it was a messed up stop.
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Re: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposure

#34

Post by jmra »

Vol Texan wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:
It would be interesting to see if a complaint was filed on this one and what the disposition of that complaint was.
I believe this happened in 2009, and all charges were dropped: http://www.clerk.citrus.fl.us/courts/case/16888028b.

I don't know if there was a law requiring him to inform the officer back then, or if there is one now, but either way, it was a messed up stop.
I wonder if there was a settlement involved. I also wonder if the officer is still in the business.
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Re: Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposu

#35

Post by Keith B »

labrat1001001 wrote:Maybe I’m being a little obtuse, but I didn’t see a gun when the contact was leaning back into his vehicle, I only saw black leather. Isn’t there some legal difference here?
It was easily recognizable as a holster, even from the dash cam. The officer also had a different vantage point, so he may have even been able to see there was a handgun in the holster.
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Re: Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposu

#36

Post by C-dub »

I don't think the officer should have been or should be fired. He just needs a little more training and education on how to deal with someone like this that is being compliant. The guy wasn't a threat to him and he could have even helped the guy out and give him some advice to help him further avoid another situation like that. I don't think he was concealed very well. That shirt appeared a little too light weight and only barely long enough. He didn't bend that much when it exposed quite a bit of the holster.
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Re: Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposu

#37

Post by chasfm11 »

Keith B wrote:
labrat1001001 wrote:Maybe I’m being a little obtuse, but I didn’t see a gun when the contact was leaning back into his vehicle, I only saw black leather. Isn’t there some legal difference here?
It was easily recognizable as a holster, even from the dash cam. The officer also had a different vantage point, so he may have even been able to see there was a handgun in the holster.
One of the interesting aspects of this case is the statement that I've heard repeated a lot - BGs don't wear holsters. I've often wondered:

1. It is true? Is there any LEO with an experience of a BG who did have a holster?

2. If it is true, it it recognized by most LEOs? If so, that would further detract from the reasonableness of the actions of the LEO in the video

I realize that there are no absolutes in something like this. There always could be a first time the ends up getting an officer killed. But if there is wide acceptance of the holster-less BG concept, an accidental exposure with a recognizable holster should be handled better.
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Re: Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposu

#38

Post by Andrew »

chasfm11 wrote:
Keith B wrote:
labrat1001001 wrote:Maybe I’m being a little obtuse, but I didn’t see a gun when the contact was leaning back into his vehicle, I only saw black leather. Isn’t there some legal difference here?
It was easily recognizable as a holster, even from the dash cam. The officer also had a different vantage point, so he may have even been able to see there was a handgun in the holster.
One of the interesting aspects of this case is the statement that I've heard repeated a lot - BGs don't wear holsters. I've often wondered:

1. It is true? Is there any LEO with an experience of a BG who did have a holster?

2. If it is true, it it recognized by most LEOs? If so, that would further detract from the reasonableness of the actions of the LEO in the video

I realize that there are no absolutes in something like this. There always could be a first time the ends up getting an officer killed. But if there is wide acceptance of the holster-less BG concept, an accidental exposure with a recognizable holster should be handled better.
This article led http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2007/10/10/ ... d-suspect/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; me to http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publi ... r06leb.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; while still anecdotal, 3 studies/reports over 15 years, odds are if you are carrying a gun in a holster you're a good guy.
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Re: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Expsure

#39

Post by MasterOfNone »

Keith B wrote:
RottenApple wrote:
Gameover wrote:Watched this the other day. I think if he would of just said he had a gun on him and had a permit to carry the stop would have went differently. I understand that he is not required to tell him anything but I think its better he finds out from you rather then spotting it himself. Just my .02
I disagree. Under FL law he is not required to notify unless asked and, judging by this cops completely unprofessional attitude and behavior, it most likely would have gone even worse. Officers like this give the rest a bad name.
Wrong, under FL law you DO have to display your license when asked for ID. He did not do this.
790.06 …. The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.
I know I'm a little late responding to this, but I just saw it. I think you're thinking in the context of Texas law which states that you must display the CHL when an LE "demands that the license holder display identification." But the FL statute cited above does not refer to being asked for ID. The sentence is about carrying the license and says you must display it along with id upon demand. Because the sentence is about the license, it is a reasonable interpretation that it means "upon demand for the license."
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Re: Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposu

#40

Post by MasterOfNone »

TxLobo wrote:Don't know if the court docket posted is the same case or not..

This was posted yesterday.

This link: http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Conce ... B.facebook" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

indicates that when the case got to the courthouse: "When the case got to the courthouse, the state attorney declined to prosecute saying there was little chance a jury would convict."

and the officer.. "Deputy Alan Cox has now been put on administrative leave pending an internal investigation."
There was little chance a jury would convict because of:
790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
This is a piece I have been hoping to see in TX, which appears to very similar to the accidental display bill.
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Re: Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposu

#41

Post by Jim Beaux »

First I have to say, what a disgusting display from someone who we employ to maintain a state of civility. I am just totally outraged. Our cops have a lot of power that must be metered by their depth of character.

This deputy should be fired. His actions are motivated viscerally instead of cerebrally; something that training cant overcome. If he is allowed to continue he will only get better at covering his bad behavior.

Secondly, I want to express my appreciation to gigag for his approach to law enforcement. We civilians do notice and respect cops like you. A professional certainly understands and acts with dignity & with the knowledge that not everyone he encounters will possess the same capacity for logic.(yeah, I know, an understatement. :lol: )

From what I have found this event happened in 2009. Seems the deputy has a reputation,as well as the county he serves; Citrus County. He is on admin leave & an investigation is being conducted. There are some questioning why this video has only recently come to light.



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Re: Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposu

#42

Post by Grapevinebill »

I agree with topbuilder that 1 - this is a very poor job of concealment and 2 - WHAT THE HELL did he get out of the van for? Stay in your seat and make sure the LEO can see your hands. He was mistreated and the LEO should be reprimanded, but stay put and do a better job of concealing the weapon.
I've spent a lot of money on guns, bullets and holsters.... The rest I've just squandered away!
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