Ohio gun shop owner killed...

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mbschne
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Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby mbschne » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:34 am

Ohio gun shop owner killed during concealed carry class.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/19/oh ... tcmp=hpbt4

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C-dub
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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby C-dub » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:03 am

Wow, very sad.

I wonder what kind of wall it went through. You know, one of those little wall partitions between slots on the same range or a wall between two rooms with sheet rock?

The article doesn't say anything about the shooter. Since this was a complete accident, I hope they're going to be okay. That's going to be rough.
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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby dlh » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:23 am

Practicing weapons malfunction drills indoors with live rounds? Sorry, that does not sound safe at all. Sounds like something that should be done outside in a dirt area with the weapon pointed down at all times. However, I am not a "credentialed" firearms instructor so what do the experts say about this?...


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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby treadlightly » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:45 am

dlh wrote:Practicing weapons malfunction drills indoors with live rounds? Sorry, that does not sound safe at all. Sounds like something that should be done outside in a dirt area with the weapon pointed down at all times. However, I am not a "credentialed" firearms instructor so what do the experts say about this?...


You may be right, but I'd say it depends. If the shooter is familiar with clearing malfunctions, and, most of all, if Cooper's Four Rules are respected, I'd say in general there's nothing wrong with it. It probably depends on the nature of the simulated malfunction. I'd say a stovepipe is pretty easy to clear safely.

The story won't load for me so I don't know the details. In this case, it sounds like the gun wasn't handled safely. Safe gun handling, no injuries.

Prayers and thoughts to those affected.


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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby yerasimos » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:15 am

If I remember correctly, the NRA prohibits the handling of live firearms and ammunition in the classroom portions of their courses. If this guideline had been applied in the classroom at the gun shop in Ohio, this fatality would have been completely avoided.

I do not claim to be an expert, but I have taken several handgun classes and regularly participated in a recurring training cycle that included malfunction drills. A key point is that all of those drills, whether conducted indoors or outdoors, were conducted on a range, never in a classroom.

The instructor in the recurring training cycle had us use commercially-available dummy ammunition (essentially, empty nickel cases capped with fluorescent-colored plastic "bullets") to prepare simulated double feeds during drills. However, we sometimes interspersed dummy rounds with live rounds to simulate failures-to-fire during strings of live fire, and we never experienced a problem or near miss with this practice.

One other thing: this is not the first time I have heard of people getting shot and injured in an Ohio-compliant concealed carry course. However, I do not know whether the course requirements mandated by the state of Ohio, or the way individual instructors implement those requirements, may be the root cause of these negligent/unintentional (take your pick) discharges.


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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby treadlightly » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:52 am

Agree that a classroom is the wrong place for live ammo. The news story, when I finally got into it, says the accident happened in a handgun class. I pictured range time as part of a class, not a classroom without a backstop. Sad story.

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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby puma guy » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:17 pm

Prayers for the victim and his family. I wish the media would stop calling this sort of thing "accidental" when in reality it's negligence in almost every case. IMHO
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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby pushpullpete » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:20 pm

yerasimos wrote: The instructor in the recurring training cycle had us use commercially-available dummy ammunition (essentially, empty nickel cases capped with fluorescent-colored plastic "bullets") to prepare simulated double feeds during drills. However, we sometimes interspersed dummy rounds with live rounds to simulate failures-to-fire during strings of live fire, and we never experienced a problem or near miss with this practice.


This is a sad situation that shouldn't have happened. My heart goes out to his family. :tiphat:
I practice where and when I have time, this has quite often been in my livingroom in front of the tv. I am a fan of snap caps and dummy ammo that I've made. Building true muscle memory can be done anywhere but only through practice, practice & more practice. Live ammo has it's place but, I don't believe it has a place in a classroom atmosphere where you don't know the person well. Or, for that matter, where you can't control their ability to sweep. I do not have the temperment necessary to teach large groups, I have enough trouble teaching one at a time.

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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby Middle Age Russ » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:03 pm

NO live ammunition should be present in a classroom setting at the same time guns may be handled, EVER. There is no need for it (you certainly shouldn't be firing inside a classroom) and its presence introduces another possibility for tragic consequences. Additionally, any time gun handling skills are being drilled -- even with dummy ammunition -- muzzle discipline (keeping it pointed in a safe direction) should be maintained. The instructor of this 'firearms safety" class failed his students and his associate, and his associate is unfortunately dead as a result.

I pray for God's peace and comfort to Mr. Baker's loved ones, the students in the class, the community and the instructor on whose watch this occurred.
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Re: Ohio gun shop owner killed...

Postby Skiprr » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:39 pm

yerasimos wrote:If I remember correctly, the NRA prohibits the handling of live firearms and ammunition in the classroom portions of their courses. If this guideline had been applied in the classroom at the gun shop in Ohio, this fatality would have been completely avoided.

Yep. The NRA is quite strict: no live ammunition inside a classroom at all. Ever.

I remember years ago assisting an NRA Training Counselor with a Basic Pistol class. I was prepping before the students arrived and was unpacking material I had brought. Among other stuff, I pulled out two small cardboard boxes, one for Speer Lawman 9mm and another Winchester whitebox .45 ACP. The training counselor grabbed my wrist, and the look he gave me might as well have said that SWAT was coming through the doors and windows in two seconds.

Flipping the lid on the boxes, I showed him they were completely empty. I explained I'd brought them as a way to help show how to identify different calibers and types of ammunition before purchasing.

And I wholly agree with the NRA on this. Pareto's law: my bet is that well over 80% of all firearm negligent discharges are related to administrative functions when the person handling the gun assumed it was empty, or assumed it had a Snap-Cap in the chamber, or assumed the safety was engaged an all that was needed to prevent a discharge. One unfortunate corollary here is that sometimes it is the seemingly most "experienced" who get lax and make administrative mistakes.

It isn't tacticool; it isn't macho. But I have never seen anyone I consider a true shooter be anything but exquisitely fastidious with firearm safety. Way beyond, "measure twice, cut once." A real operator never assumes anything about the state of his or her firearm, ammunition, target, or what's beyond it. A real operator treats any firearm as loaded until absolutely, irrevocably cleared. A real operator never has live ammunition anywhere near a firearm that is being disassembled, cleaned, or maintained. A real operator will always confirm the status of a firearm that has been off-body and out of sight, even if that was in a safe overnight. A real operator will never engage in dry-fire practice--and it's certain he or she does this a lot, far more than live fire--with ammunition anywhere in the vicinity. A real operator frequently will practice stoppage clearance drills with live ammunition...but never under anything but controlled range conditions.

Sorry. I know I'm preachin' to the choir here. But first-time gun owners find our Forum and, of course, Bloomberg and Soros groups surveil us regularly.

The Ohio incident was, tragically, eminently preventable. A man is dead, a family is distraught, inconsolable, and the antis have another event to point to as an illustration of how guns are unsafe even among "experts." Never mind that such an occurrence--negligent though it undeniably was--is far, far less likely than the probability of being struck by lightning.
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