73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby nightmare69 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:22 am

Sounds like it was force on force training using sim rounds. The guns used for these sim rounds have the same weight and size of a Glock 17 and function just like the real firearm. Only difference is a blue slide. Anytime we use sim guns in training you put on high gear suit and have to empty your duty belt of ALL metal. We are patted down and wanded before entering the training room.
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby RogueUSMC » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:25 am

Excaliber wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
parabelum wrote:
MeMelYup wrote:
Beiruty wrote:While clearing and making gun safe. I speculate this what happened
He racked the pistol, eject a bullet BEFORE removing the magazine.
Removed the magazine and declared the pistol safe. It was Glock with no manual safety
And, the rest is will go in the annals of the news magazines.

Wouldn't have to be a Glock. A lot of firearms sold specifically to police don't have the no magazine lockout.


It was a revolver.

"Lewis said that the department was unaware that live ammunition existed for the revolver he also said he was not sure how the fact that the gun was loaded was missed. He said that it was the department's belief that only blanks were available to the officer using the weapon."

http://www.news-press.com/story/news/cr ... /88500140/


I've never seen or handled a blank, but would it look any different loaded into the weapon?

I can understand the additional drama/realism of using blanks, but I think we've shown here that it's an unneeded risk. Add the sound effects via some speakers if needed.


There's a good possibility the officer didn't know the difference between a blank and a live round.

The use of blanks at close range can also cause very serious injury and should not have been even considered under the circumstances described.

Everyone involved in planning or approving this tragedy was woefully negligent and likely ignorant.

In boot, we had a recruit shot with a blank from about 5 feet. He had more than one visit to the doc to get all the little pieces of carbon, powder, etc. removed from his face.
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby Jusme » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:33 am

Excaliber wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
parabelum wrote:
MeMelYup wrote:
Beiruty wrote:While clearing and making gun safe. I speculate this what happened
He racked the pistol, eject a bullet BEFORE removing the magazine.
Removed the magazine and declared the pistol safe. It was Glock with no manual safety
And, the rest is will go in the annals of the news magazines.

Wouldn't have to be a Glock. A lot of firearms sold specifically to police don't have the no magazine lockout.


It was a revolver.

"Lewis said that the department was unaware that live ammunition existed for the revolver he also said he was not sure how the fact that the gun was loaded was missed. He said that it was the department's belief that only blanks were available to the officer using the weapon."

http://www.news-press.com/story/news/cr ... /88500140/


I've never seen or handled a blank, but would it look any different loaded into the weapon?

I can understand the additional drama/realism of using blanks, but I think we've shown here that it's an unneeded risk. Add the sound effects via some speakers if needed.


There's a good possibility the officer didn't know the difference between a blank and a live round.

The use of blanks at close range can also cause very serious injury and should not have been even considered under the circumstances described.

Everyone involved in planning or approving this tragedy was woefully negligent and likely ignorant.



Exactly, blanks are loud, and even the propellant at close range can and has caused injuries. We only used blanks in training outdoors, for our practicals, and never at close range. They do look, and feel different, I can't imagine loading a live round and mistaking it for a blank.
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby wrinkles » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:23 am

I still remember this from many years ago. Blanks are very dangerous. This was a very badly thought out training session. Many mistakes made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum

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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby WildBill » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:29 am

TexasTornado wrote:
parabelum wrote:
MeMelYup wrote:
Beiruty wrote:While clearing and making gun safe. I speculate this what happened
He racked the pistol, eject a bullet BEFORE removing the magazine.
Removed the magazine and declared the pistol safe. It was Glock with no manual safety
And, the rest is will go in the annals of the news magazines.

Wouldn't have to be a Glock. A lot of firearms sold specifically to police don't have the no magazine lockout.


It was a revolver.

"Lewis said that the department was unaware that live ammunition existed for the revolver he also said he was not sure how the fact that the gun was loaded was missed. He said that it was the department's belief that only blanks were available to the officer using the weapon."

http://www.news-press.com/story/news/cr ... /88500140/


I've never seen or handled a blank, but would it look any different loaded into the weapon?

I can understand the additional drama/realism of using blanks, but I think we've shown here that it's an unneeded risk. Add the sound effects via some speakers if needed.


Blue guns are solid plastic so they do not function. They can be molded to look like any type of firearm.

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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby jmorris » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:27 am

TexasTornado wrote:...

I've never seen or handled a blank, but would it look any different loaded into the weapon?

I can understand the additional drama/realism of using blanks, but I think we've shown here that it's an unneeded risk. Add the sound effects via some speakers if needed.


The ones I've handled were either crimped or used a cardboard or plastic plug. Within a few feet the plug is very dangerous. Even the crimped ones spew out particles and are dangerous within a foot or two.

I suppose a wad cutter round could be mistaken for a plugged blank with just a quick glance although the ones I saw had a bright blue plug.

And, caveat, this was over twenty-five years ago.
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby RogueUSMC » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:53 am

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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby The Annoyed Man » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:38 am

Excaliber wrote:The use of blanks at close range can also cause very serious injury and should not have been even considered under the circumstances described.

Everyone involved in planning or approving this tragedy was woefully negligent and likely ignorant.

Back in the 1980s, actor [url=1980s actor accidentally shoots self in head on set]Jon-Erik Hexum[/url] accidentally killed himself on the set of the TV show Cover Up.
On October 12, 1984, the cast and crew of Cover Up were filming the seventh episode of the series, "Golden Opportunity", on Stage 17 of the 20th Century Fox lot. One of the scenes filmed that day called for Hexum's character to load bullets into a .44 Magnum handgun, so he was provided with a functional real gun and live blanks. When the scene did not play as the director wanted it to play in the master shot, there was a delay in filming. Hexum became restless and impatient during the delay and began playing around to lighten the mood. Apparently, he had unloaded all but one (blank) round, spun it, and, apparently simulating Russian roulette with what he thought was a harmless weapon, at 5:15 p.m., he put the revolver to his right temple and pulled the trigger.

Hexum was apparently unaware that his actions were dangerous. Blanks use paper or plastic wadding to seal gunpowder into the cartridge, and this wadding is propelled from the barrel of the gun with enough force to cause injury if the weapon is fired within a few feet of the body should it strike at a particularly vulnerable spot, such as the temple or the eye. At a close enough range, the effect of the powder gasses is similar to a small explosion so although the paper wadding in the blank that Hexum discharged did not penetrate his skull, there was enough blunt force trauma to shatter a quarter-sized piece of his skull and propel the pieces into his brain, causing massive hemorrhaging.

And then there's the tragic but stupid case of Brandon Lee's death from a .44 thought to be loaded with blanks.

Late SEAL Team 6 member Adam Brown lost his dominant right eye to a simmunition round during training because he turned his attention away for a split second from what was in front of him, and the round got past the ballistic lenses he was wearing and pulped his eyeball.

This stuff is serious, and to the extent that any of us lets our attention wander for a moment while we are either gun in hand, or around others who have a gun in hand, we risk lead poisoning.
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby Middle Age Russ » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:20 am

If no actual discharge of a firearm is needed for training, extreme adherence to the three (or four depending on your source) rules of safe gun handling is absolutely called for. Someone has already mentioned the use of blue guns, SIRT pistols and the like, and simunitions have been mentioned already as well. There is another alternative as well for a classroom setting where actual discharge of the firearm is not warranted -- a training barrel inserted instead of the regular barrel of a firearm. Brownell's sells them for three or four popular semi-auto platforms. The "barrel" is yellow plastic and fits in the gun in place of the regular barrel but does not allow for chambering of a round at all.
http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/training-safety-gear/training-amp-simulation/training-barrel-prod26106.aspx
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby Excaliber » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:07 pm

Jusme wrote:
Excaliber wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
parabelum wrote:
MeMelYup wrote:
Beiruty wrote:While clearing and making gun safe. I speculate this what happened
He racked the pistol, eject a bullet BEFORE removing the magazine.
Removed the magazine and declared the pistol safe. It was Glock with no manual safety
And, the rest is will go in the annals of the news magazines.

Wouldn't have to be a Glock. A lot of firearms sold specifically to police don't have the no magazine lockout.


It was a revolver.

"Lewis said that the department was unaware that live ammunition existed for the revolver he also said he was not sure how the fact that the gun was loaded was missed. He said that it was the department's belief that only blanks were available to the officer using the weapon."

http://www.news-press.com/story/news/cr ... /88500140/


I've never seen or handled a blank, but would it look any different loaded into the weapon?

I can understand the additional drama/realism of using blanks, but I think we've shown here that it's an unneeded risk. Add the sound effects via some speakers if needed.


There's a good possibility the officer didn't know the difference between a blank and a live round.

The use of blanks at close range can also cause very serious injury and should not have been even considered under the circumstances described.

Everyone involved in planning or approving this tragedy was woefully negligent and likely ignorant.



Exactly, blanks are loud, and even the propellant at close range can and has caused injuries. We only used blanks in training outdoors, for our practicals, and never at close range. They do look, and feel different, I can't imagine loading a live round and mistaking it for a blank.


Since there is no projectile leaving the barrel, blanks also do not cause recoil.

This adds more mystery to how one could unknowingly shoot someone more than once with the excuse that he thought he was firing blanks.
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby TexasTornado » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:17 pm

Excaliber wrote:
Jusme wrote:
Excaliber wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
parabelum wrote:
MeMelYup wrote:
Beiruty wrote:While clearing and making gun safe. I speculate this what happened
He racked the pistol, eject a bullet BEFORE removing the magazine.
Removed the magazine and declared the pistol safe. It was Glock with no manual safety
And, the rest is will go in the annals of the news magazines.

Wouldn't have to be a Glock. A lot of firearms sold specifically to police don't have the no magazine lockout.


It was a revolver.

"Lewis said that the department was unaware that live ammunition existed for the revolver he also said he was not sure how the fact that the gun was loaded was missed. He said that it was the department's belief that only blanks were available to the officer using the weapon."

http://www.news-press.com/story/news/cr ... /88500140/


I've never seen or handled a blank, but would it look any different loaded into the weapon?

I can understand the additional drama/realism of using blanks, but I think we've shown here that it's an unneeded risk. Add the sound effects via some speakers if needed.


There's a good possibility the officer didn't know the difference between a blank and a live round.

The use of blanks at close range can also cause very serious injury and should not have been even considered under the circumstances described.

Everyone involved in planning or approving this tragedy was woefully negligent and likely ignorant.



Exactly, blanks are loud, and even the propellant at close range can and has caused injuries. We only used blanks in training outdoors, for our practicals, and never at close range. They do look, and feel different, I can't imagine loading a live round and mistaking it for a blank.


Since there is no projectile leaving the barrel, blanks also do not cause recoil.

This adds more mystery to how one could unknowingly shoot someone more than once with the excuse that he thought he was firing blanks.


I'm learning a lot about blanks today. Very informational and interesting.
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby ScottDLS » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:23 pm

It's just really a bad idea to train with blanks in a revolver, especially at close range. Semi's have to use blank firing adapters in order to cycle, and I've only ever used them in assault rifles (M-16). The BFA was a big red "block" that clamped onto the flash hider and inserted a metal rod in the barrel. Then the blank 5.56 rounds were crimped brass at the end with no bullet. Even then we weren't supposed to point them at anyone closer than 30 feet. And this was for sailors and marines on active duty training for ground combat...not civilian/citizen patrol training... :???:
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby E.Marquez » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:35 am

TexasTornado wrote:I've never seen or handled a blank, but would it look any different loaded into the weapon?

I can understand the additional drama/realism of using blanks, but I think we've shown here that it's an unneeded risk. Add the sound effects via some speakers if needed.

Not from the back side of a revolver, but you could tell by looking at the front of the cylinder if it was an unshrouded type.
In any case, the idea, the correct way is you make the gun different in both visual and physical ways. I have modified real weapons for blank use. the chambers were plugged in a way that did not allow real loaded ammo to chamber, but blanks would.
In the semi auto I did, this also allowed for reliable cycling with a modified slide and recoil spring.
I've seen folks just do a barrel plug :eek6 and not address the issue of real ammo being capable of being loaded :headscratch :shock: :shock:
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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby gljjt » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:54 am

Scott B. wrote:As stated previously, blue guns exist for a reason.


This

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Re: 73 year old Florida woman shot dead in citizens police academy demonstration

Postby Liberty » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:09 am

Is it just me or are Florida cops stupider than cops in the rest of the rest of the country? They seem to be having an epidemic of shooting people that clearly shouldn't be shot.
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