Close call almost had to draw

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mrvmax
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby mrvmax » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:02 am

cirus wrote:
mrvmax wrote:You need to read the forum rules, you violated rule 1 in your post.

When did pie hole become profanity? It's just another word for " mouth "

Was referring to the OP.

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TexasTornado
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby TexasTornado » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:36 am

twomillenium wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
o b juan wrote:why do new posters ask the question?

Almost had to draw?

Have occasionally had some in class that Had the shoot scenario thrown out to class by someone.. The are usually tryng to get attention and show they are MACHO. Very similair to the guys who just have to OC so they can see the fear in someones eyes.
I let them talk and then shut them down trying not to embarise them


I do not understand the continual slamming of those who choose to OC that takes place on this forum.

I understand that OC may not be your cup of tea, but saying that people "OC so they can see the fear in someones eyes," makes you sound presumptuous and judgemental. JMHO.

That is not what was said, you edited the statement thus editing the meaning. The poster said, "guys who just have to OC so they can see the fear in someones eyes". (They are out there, you know it, I know it, We all know it) The poster did not say all OC was like that, but your editing made it seem that way.

Also, you are right, Miss Manners is not required to get LTC, but DISPUTE RESILUTION is. If someone listened to that part of the class, they would have already known that dispute resolution was not being followed. When you use offensive language not only do you show lack of intellect, but it could be considered provocation. :tiphat:


Noted. I may have read more into the comment than was intended, but it seems to be an ongoing issue throughout threads. Also, a short segment on dispute resolution doesn't actually teach someone how to difuse situations. It does tell us that we need to try to diffuse not provoke; however, a lawyer could easily argue the OP was attempting to do just that by telling the boater to (paraphrasing) 'shut it and leave his family alone.' I'm not insinuating it was the best handling, but I also don't believe it was escalating given the actions of the boater it was more meeting the threat at the aggressor's level.

Backing down isn't always the best option when faced with a threat either. Softness can often be taken for weakness, and weakness can signal you as prey/victim which can actually escalate a situation with meatheads like Mr.Boater appears to be in the OP's scenario. Overall the human emotional state is extremely complicated which is why police, psychologists, nurses, etc., spend so much time learning different methods for dealing with agitated individuals.
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KLB
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby KLB » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:29 am

Liberty wrote:You escalated it. Didn't need to speak back at him. When we are carrying we have a responsibility to use de-escalation skills.


Yes. Some jerk's words are no reason to move toward a situation in which deadly force may be necessary.


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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby txhighlander » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:19 am

The boater puts his boat in the water, parks his pickup, walks over to OP and informs him of his wrong. OP apologized and promptly leaves. Boater gets back in pickup to drive to OP to continue encounter. At this time I believe the boater escalated the situation. There wasn't any reason the boater needed to continue the encounter after the OP apologized and promptly left the docking zone. I can't say I would have done the same thing as the OP but I would have considered it as being pursued and would have been very cautious. I recon there is a chance the boater forgot bait ,coffee or beer and had to return to the store and just capitalized on the his forgetfulness to make a point about his feelings toward Texans ,but we don't know why he chose to continue the encounter.
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby cirus » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:44 am

What the op did may not have been the smartest thing but I can see why he did it. People just get sick and tired of being pushed around and how else is a guy like the boater ever gonna learn. He may run his mouth to everyone like that and he just hasn't run across the right ole boy until he met the op. It has to stop somewhere and it's a shame that it took the threat of a gun to do it.


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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby Abraham » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:06 am

My opinion: One doesn't need to have the last word when carrying. If you need to defend yourself, do so without escalating the situation by using insulting/threatening words as seen below:

You said: "I look him straight in the eye and tell him he can [Abbreviated profanity deleted. Don't do it again.]

The above utterance is insulting and completely unnecessary and which could easily create escalation.

He pauses a few seconds considering his options and as he starts to lean to grab something from under the seat, I say "You won't get the chance to sit up straight"

The second sentence sounds like a western movie/braggadocio type threat. Probably pleasing to the ego, but makes you the aggressor.

Keeping insults and threats to yourself is the wisest choice of action. Such behavior won't get in the way of defending yourself.


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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby bayou » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:13 am

These are my thoughts, if you don't agree I'm fine with that. Were both parties the cause of the escalation yes. Was one moreso that the other yes. Could it have been avoided by both parties yes. I'm not trying to second guess anyone here and say I would have acted perfectly because I don't always do so. Two expressions my dad always told me as a kid come to mind--- Everyone gets their turn at being a jerk. Just try not to go twice or cut in line. The other is if you wrestle with a pig, you get dirty and the pig gets happy.

One way that I try to deal with people like the boat owner is instead of replying to them is to wave to them with a huge smile on my face. Most people will not escalate it any more than that. Some of them may think I'm weak but so what. My self worth does not depend upon what some aggressive stranger thinks. I carry a gun to protect my family and not my masculinity or what some knucklehead thinks of me. I hope to never have to pull the trigger on someone but I will to defend the family. I just want to make sure I don't live the rest of my life with the guilt of ending someone's life needlessly.

A lot of this was not taught in my CHL class but neither was how to properly fire my weapon safely. Relying only upon what was covered in the class may not be the best course of action. The course is designed to teach the bare bones basics of what is legal and to ensure the person has a minimal gun handling and shooting skills. As a CHL/LTC holder we are responsible for everything else.

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RPBrown
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby RPBrown » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:22 am

AJSully421 wrote:Your key phrase, and try to say it with as little sarcasm as you can muster in the moment, is:

"Sorry 'bout that."

"Hey, you Texans think you can do whatever you want!" "Sorry 'bout that."

"Hey, this area is for boatin', not whatever you's a doin" "Sorry 'bout that."

Hey, your dog just peed all over my $1,000 boots" "Sorry 'bout that."


Then you can honestly reply in court: "Well, I told that feller that I was sorry, and then he pulled a pistol and I had to shoot him to get him to stop."

It goes over better than "I told him to shut his facial orifice and he pulled a pistol..."


:iagree: And after all, you are on his "turf" so to speak. Who do you think a jury would believe, a local or an out of stater? You did not see a weapon, he was, by your admission had just backed his boat in the water. Perhaps he was getting a life jacket or the boat keys or cell phone had fallen into the floor. There are a million what ifs. But the biggest what if is what if he had continued to move as he was, you shoot him at that point and it WAS as cell phone.
The key is to be ready and aware. Now. if he raises up and you clearly see a weapon, all things change at that point.
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Middle Age Russ
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby Middle Age Russ » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:23 am

Interesting story, and good discussion all around. :tiphat:

I wasn't there and only know the perspective presented by the OP. I don't know that I'd do anything differently -- I wasn't in those circumstances. That said, some of the commentary posted leads me to a couple of conclusions. First, different people view certain dialog/phrases/words VERY differently -- some perceive such as benign and others as provocative (non-escalating vs. escalating). Second (and this point has been made by others), according to the OP's account the boat owner seems to have purposefully re-engaged. In some ways this could be considered an escalation in and of itself. Last, the warning given, "You won't get the chance to sit up straight", seems to have been effective in that a gun-fight did not break out. While giving the warning could be perceived as an escalation point, the warning may also be added information that may change the recipient's actions.

All in all, I am glad it worked out without extra paperwork, time and inquiries.
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby Mike S » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:26 am

Texas Tornado,
I'm not intending to jump at you, so please don't take it wrong. Perhaps the OPs post had already been edited before you saw it, but his response was "[four-letter expletive] off", not "shut your mouth & leave us alone". Both may have a similar context, however I believe the point many are trying to make is that (under Tx law, I have no idea what Wyoming law says; remember, under reciprocity we must follow local law) the 'presumtion' of reasonableness is lost if we provoke the attacker. This doesn't mean the OP couldn't have used force/deadly force if immediately necessarily to protect himself/wife, just that the 'presumtion' that his belief was reasonable wouldn't be there. I'm also not saying that any certain DA &/or jury would/wouldn't see it as provocation in this situation.

Taking the totality of the circumstances (boater guy's reapproachiing them; boater guy's verbal aggression towards him; appeared to be reaching under the seat) a reasonable person may have reached the same conclusion that he was reaching for a weapon. And most certainly if a weapon had been produced from under the seat there would have been a reasonable belief that they were in jeopardy (in my opinion).

However, from the boater's/DA's perspective, it may have been a totally different optic: boater asked a couple who were on the launch to move, pointing out the sign that area was for boat launch/recovery only; boater parked his truck in parking lot after launching boat, & saw the OP had only moved 75 yds & parked along the road before proceeding to walk back to continue taking photos; words were exchanged; OP provoked situation by choice of words; OP made obtuse comment threatening to use deadly force if needed. Since I wasn't there & in both parties shoes I won't pretend to know how it actually played out, but the reality is oftentimes somewhere in the middle (and this is one of the key takeaways from the Nonviolent Dispute Resolution block of instruction, finding ways to meet in the middle).

Another thing to consider is that (under Tx law) force is never justified in response to verbal provocation alone. The boater can say whatever ugliness he wants to about Texans, but until he actually (or perceivably) puts us at risk of death/serious bodily injury there's no justification under Chapter 9 to use deadly force in self defense. Likewise, Mr Boater wouldn't have justification under Chapter 9 to use force against the OP for his choice of words either. Even the protection of TPC 9.04 (Threats as Justifiable Force) requires that force be justified already.

So, in the end, I can agree with both viewpoints in the OP's original question (husband's vs wife's perspective) to an extent. The OP could definitely have chosen better words than the expletive (and I agree that this may constitute provocation), but if the Boater had pulled out a gun there would have been a decent claim (minus the presumption of reasonableness) of self defense.
Mike S.

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Jusme
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby Jusme » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:27 am

I know that we all have, or at least have been tempted, to reply to insults, or those perceived as insults, with cutting remarks, and more insults. These things only escalate any situation.

I understand the OP position, and I am one the biggest defenders of Texas, but something along the lines of "we were so enamored by the beautiful scenery here in your state, we just didn't even notice the signs" Not only deflects the attempted insult, without really acknowledging it, but puts the antagonist in a position, that he can't come up with anything without then really becoming, more of a jerk.

Disrespect is rampant, and there is always someone out there who has a chip on their shoulder, but for every every opportunity to escalate, an interaction, there are just as many opportunities to diffuse them.

There is a book, and several videos, from Dr. George Thompson, called Verbal Judo. They are originally designed for LEOs, but the techniques work for everyone.

Stay safe out there everyone! :tiphat:
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bblhd672
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby bblhd672 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:37 am

Say the guy drives off after your comment, calls police and tells them you threatened him with a weapon.

Is the ensuing encounter with LEO worth your reaction to his ignorant words? Which is the worst thing about your vacation - an ignorant yahoo opening his mouth and removing all doubt, or convincing Wyoming law enforcement and possibly a judge to believe you didn't do anything wrong?

Did your reaction to the man reflect positively upon yourself, Texans and Texas? Does he think any differently about us after that?

I know, its tough when people abuse you verbally, especially in front of your wife.
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parabelum
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby parabelum » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:04 am

Taking a blow to ego chin is tough, especially for those of us who are type a dudes or dudettes, but it sure beats the expense, paperwork and a potential cavity search on side of some WY highway :smash:


Soccerdad1995
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:05 am

TexasTornado wrote:
o b juan wrote:why do new posters ask the question?

Almost had to draw?

Have occasionally had some in class that Had the shoot scenario thrown out to class by someone.. The are usually tryng to get attention and show they are MACHO. Very similair to the guys who just have to OC so they can see the fear in someones eyes.
I let them talk and then shut them down trying not to embarise them


I do not understand the continual slamming of those who choose to OC that takes place on this forum.

I understand that OC may not be your cup of tea, but saying that people "OC so they can see the fear in someones eyes," makes you sound presumptuous and judgemental. JMHO.


:iagree:
Ding dong, the witch is dead


Soccerdad1995
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Re: Close call almost had to draw

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:08 am

cirus wrote:Everyone says they would do this or that or the op should have done this or that. Until your faced with the situation you don't know what you would do. Quit being so judgemental.


I usually agree with your sentiment.

But in this case, the OP asked for the opinions of forum members. I am going to take him at his word and say that he actually wants to hear our opinions.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


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