Look Out for Lookouts

So that others may learn.

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Beiruty
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby Beiruty » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:07 pm

AndyC wrote:For the scariest heart-pounding experience, do it Man vs. Man style.

An old pic but here's my victory thumbs-up after taking on 40 guys and advancing to beat the top-shooter in the finals (who had a compensated Caspian 1911 race-gun with red-dot vs. me with my stock Rock Island 1911) in New Mexico 2008:

Image

He was actually the faster and better shooter - we shot 3 sequences (I won the first, he won the second so we did a tie-breaker) but he folded under the pressure of the last one. That's the lesson right there: great gear and great skills mean zip if you can't hold it together when it counts, as evidenced by his final plate still standing at the left. As Bill Jordan put it in his book - "No Second Place Winner".


All that is great and nice but the real thing is the deal breaker. Battle Shock would paralyze so many fresh meat. Or, so they do more often than they have to.
Beiruty,
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AndyC
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby AndyC » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm

I've seen the real thing a number of times and haven't frozen yet, but I can confirm that tunnel-vision, tachypsychia and auditory exclusion are very real effects - and that countering those can be partly learned shooting steel under match pressure, particularly in real-time man vs man events.
Remember Kitty Genovese

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Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
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mojo84
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby mojo84 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:08 pm

AndyC wrote:I've seen the real thing a number of times and haven't frozen yet, but I can confirm that tunnel-vision, tachypsychia and auditory exclusion are very real effects - and that countering those can be partly learned shooting steel under match pressure, particularly in real-time man vs man events.


:iagree:

I'm sure shooting steel in competition is better than shooting paper. However. Nothing prepares a person better than the real deal. Also, no one knows for sure how they would respond until they are faced with the real deal. I'll take a guy that's been there and done that for my team.
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puma guy
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby puma guy » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:47 pm

mojo84 wrote:
AndyC wrote:I've seen the real thing a number of times and haven't frozen yet, but I can confirm that tunnel-vision, tachypsychia and auditory exclusion are very real effects - and that countering those can be partly learned shooting steel under match pressure, particularly in real-time man vs man events.


:iagree:

I'm sure shooting steel in competition is better than shooting paper. However. Nothing prepares a person better than the real deal. Also, no one knows for sure how they would respond until they are faced with the real deal. I'll take a guy that's been there and done that for my team.

Exactly why I'll take Andy on my side!
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mojo84
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby mojo84 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:02 pm

puma guy wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
AndyC wrote:I've seen the real thing a number of times and haven't frozen yet, but I can confirm that tunnel-vision, tachypsychia and auditory exclusion are very real effects - and that countering those can be partly learned shooting steel under match pressure, particularly in real-time man vs man events.


:iagree:

I'm sure shooting steel in competition is better than shooting paper. However. Nothing prepares a person better than the real deal. Also, no one knows for sure how they would respond until they are faced with the real deal. I'll take a guy that's been there and done that for my team.

Exactly why I'll take Andy on my side!



Too late. I've already chosen him. Go find your own guy. ;-)
******TRIGGER WARNING****** If offended, go find yourself a safe place and color a pretty picture.

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AndyC
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby AndyC » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:36 pm

mojo84 wrote:
AndyC wrote:I've seen the real thing a number of times and haven't frozen yet, but I can confirm that tunnel-vision, tachypsychia and auditory exclusion are very real effects - and that countering those can be partly learned shooting steel under match pressure, particularly in real-time man vs man events.


:iagree:

I'm sure shooting steel in competition is better than shooting paper. However. Nothing prepares a person better than the real deal.

To an extent yes, but some people won't survive the real deal so it's not a practical training tool ;)

I'm not claiming this will make you an unstoppable gun-fighter by any means - but if someone can't control their anxiety doing this, they're definitely not ready for a gunfight unless they're very lucky. Other than (hugely expensive) training in high-speed, 360-deg kill-houses, I can't think of anything else that's a simple and efficient way to replicate to a large degree a good number of those symptoms for the everyday civilian on an everyday range. It has to be against another human being in real time, though.
Remember Kitty Genovese

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Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
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mojo84
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby mojo84 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:26 pm

AndyC wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
AndyC wrote:I've seen the real thing a number of times and haven't frozen yet, but I can confirm that tunnel-vision, tachypsychia and auditory exclusion are very real effects - and that countering those can be partly learned shooting steel under match pressure, particularly in real-time man vs man events.


:iagree:

I'm sure shooting steel in competition is better than shooting paper. However. Nothing prepares a person better than the real deal.

To an extent yes, but some people won't survive the real deal so it's not a practical training tool ;)

I'm not claiming this will make you an unstoppable gun-fighter by any means - but if someone can't control their anxiety doing this, they're definitely not ready for a gunfight unless they're very lucky. Other than (hugely expensive) training in high-speed, 360-deg kill-houses, I can't think of anything else that's a simple and efficient way to replicate to a large degree a good number of those symptoms for the everyday civilian on an everyday range. It has to be against another human being in real time, though.


I agree with you. Training is better than nothing or just shooting paper. I get the impression some think that shooting competitive matches makes them ready for combat. There is no substitute for pulling a gun on someone that is intent on doing you harm. As you know, no one really knows how or how well they will respond until in the situation.

Nonetheless, you are on my team of things get jiggy,
******TRIGGER WARNING****** If offended, go find yourself a safe place and color a pretty picture.

My rep said he would consider supporting HB560. https://www.texasfirearmscoalition.com/ ... since-2007

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AndyC
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby AndyC » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:43 pm

mojo84 wrote:I agree with you. Training is better than nothing or just shooting paper. I get the impression some think that shooting competitive matches makes them ready for combat. There is no substitute for pulling a gun on someone that is intent on doing you harm. As you know, no one really knows how or how well they will respond until in the situation.

You're correct, of course - nobody knows, but we can prepare people better for the pressures of that first encounter so it's not overwhelming.

Competitive matches aren't the same thing at all, yes - but they are good for making sure stuff works and getting people familiar with their equipment so they don't have to dither and wonder how to use the stuff at speed; they can then focus all their attention on solving the problem if they can keep their head together.
Remember Kitty Genovese

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Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
Preferred Travel Agent - 72 Virgins Dating Club
There's nothing quite like the offer of 230 grains to a man's chest to remind him of his manners

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carlson1
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby carlson1 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:10 pm

AndyC wrote:
mojo84 wrote:I agree with you. Training is better than nothing or just shooting paper. I get the impression some think that shooting competitive matches makes them ready for combat. There is no substitute for pulling a gun on someone that is intent on doing you harm. As you know, no one really knows how or how well they will respond until in the situation.

You're correct, of course - nobody knows, but we can prepare people better for the pressures of that first encounter so it's not overwhelming.

Competitive matches aren't the same thing at all, yes - but they are good for making sure stuff works and getting people familiar with their equipment so they don't have to dither and wonder how to use the stuff at speed; they can then focus all their attention on solving the problem if they can keep their head together.

:iagree: 100% I also believe shooting paper is not "training." So many people go to the range and shoot 100's of rounds and call that "training." Shooting at paper should be practicing the "training" you have had.

I am not saying that any of the above should be an acquirement to be able to carry a firearm, but the training, matches, and practicing sure helps you be better prepared if you do have to defend your life.
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karder
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby karder » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:50 pm

Great information here. Thanks for sharing. :tiphat:
“While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.” ― Samuel Adams

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Paladin
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby Paladin » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:23 pm

Good Thread!

First Person Defender simulates this sort of situation with a hidden accomplice and provides some advice for handling it:

Good Samaritan Shot by Accomplice - First Person Defender

Surprise is a huge advantage. Your odds of winning a fight are best when you as a concealed carrier have the surprise advantage.

Wolves travel in packs... always look out for that next badguy... the +1... they are the most dangerous to you.


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