Look Out for Lookouts

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AndyC
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Look Out for Lookouts

Postby AndyC » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:30 am

In the scenario oriented training I conduct with both my police and armed citizen classes, the “lookout” scenario almost always leads to the cop or armed citizen being shot. No matter what amount of training you have done, it is difficult to control the tunnel vision reaction. In this case. the physiology designed to help us actually causes our demise as we overlook the lookout in order to pay better attention to the criminal we are confronting.


http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/y ... r-lookouts
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby puma guy » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:47 am

AndyC wrote:
In the scenario oriented training I conduct with both my police and armed citizen classes, the “lookout” scenario almost always leads to the cop or armed citizen being shot. No matter what amount of training you have done, it is difficult to control the tunnel vision reaction. In this case. the physiology designed to help us actually causes our demise as we overlook the lookout in order to pay better attention to the criminal we are confronting.


http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/y ... r-lookouts

Criminals are adapting to the fact that there are armed citizens who may confront them. A second person or even third as a lookout is one that is more and more common. Another tactic I've noticed is multiple armed actors entering together; often armed with long arms, i.e. shotguns and AR/AK's. As OC becomes more prominent I suspect the criminals will go after them first as they swamp their targeted establishment, and either take their weapon or shoot them on the spot and then take it. Criminals are stupid, but they ain't dumb.
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Beiruty
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby Beiruty » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:50 am

Learn to control your fear and and train to drop 3-5 targets at 10 yards or less in 4 secs. Welcome to steel matches 101.
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AndyC
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby AndyC » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:19 pm

I'm a big fan of shooting steel for that exact reason.
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby bblhd672 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:43 pm

Beiruty wrote:Learn to control your fear and and train to drop 3-5 targets at 10 yards or less in 4 secs. Welcome to steel matches 101.


Now that make sense!
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby doncb » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:07 pm

A while ago I saw a youtube video where a couple came into a store and he was carrying a rifle. She got a cart and followed about 15 feet behind. A citizen pulled his gun and was going to follow him and she pulled a gun out of her purse and shot the citizen point blank. He never knew what hit him.
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby AndyC » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:09 pm

For the scariest heart-pounding experience, do it Man vs. Man style.

An old pic but here's my victory thumbs-up after taking on 40 guys and advancing to beat the top-shooter in the finals (who had a compensated Caspian 1911 race-gun with red-dot vs. me with my stock Rock Island 1911) in New Mexico 2008:

Image

He was actually the faster and better shooter - we shot 3 sequences (I won the first, he won the second so we did a tie-breaker) but he folded under the pressure of the last one. That's the lesson right there: great gear and great skills mean zip if you can't hold it together when it counts, as evidenced by his final plate still standing at the left. As Bill Jordan put it in his book - "No Second Place Winner".
Remember Kitty Genovese

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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby treadlightly » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:28 pm

I remember seeing Ross Seyfried shoot in one-on-one "races" with people like Brian Enos. Seyfried's draw looked like an arthritic crisis, but once the gun was up he was knocking down targets. I suspect adrenal control played a part in his success.

As far as lookouts, there is a quote about velociraptors in Jurassic Park that comes to mind, "And that's when the attack comes. Not from the front, but from the side, from the other two raptors you didn't even know were there."

Raptors and people, both dangers to be respected when they pack hunt.


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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby Mxrdad » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:41 pm

treadlightly wrote:I remember seeing Ross Seyfried shoot in one-on-one "races" with people like Brian Enos. Seyfried's draw looked like an arthritic crisis, but once the gun was up he was knocking down targets. I suspect adrenal control played a part in his success.

As far as lookouts, there is a quote about velociraptors in Jurassic Park that comes to mind, "And that's when the attack comes. Not from the front, but from the side, from the other two raptors you didn't even know were there."

Raptors and people, both dangers to be respected when they pack hunt.


Crap, first its the Zombies and now we have Zombies and Raptors. I better get out there and practice more. But seriously, the criminals know when they hunt in packs their odds of success is higher vs hunting alone. Remember when you would see a woman on the side of the road with a flat tire? Back in the day, we wouldnt even think about stopping and helping. Now days?????
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby mojo84 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:22 pm

AndyC wrote:
In the scenario oriented training I conduct with both my police and armed citizen classes, the “lookout” scenario almost always leads to the cop or armed citizen being shot. No matter what amount of training you have done, it is difficult to control the tunnel vision reaction. In this case. the physiology designed to help us actually causes our demise as we overlook the lookout in order to pay better attention to the criminal we are confronting.


http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/y ... r-lookouts


One of the reasons I contend it's a bad idea to unload your gun on the person you are engaging. Nothing worse than eliminating one threat and realizing you have other threats and an empty mag.


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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby WTR » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:12 pm

I reside in the Country. Six times in the past 22 years I have had people knock on my door and ask for help. Twice I have been able to flush out " partners " ready to jump me, the other four time have been legitimate and I have been able to help.


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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby WRG » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:30 pm

This comes from a person who often carries a .380, but this is probably a good argument for carrying a larger caliber. The larger caliber should stop the threat in fewer shots leaving you more rounds for the look out. Just thinking out loud. Thanks for the topic. Lots to think about and train for.

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AndyC
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby AndyC » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:44 pm

treadlightly wrote:As far as lookouts, there is a quote about velociraptors in Jurassic Park that comes to mind, "And that's when the attack comes. Not from the front, but from the side, from the other two raptors you didn't even know were there."

Raptors and people, both dangers to be respected when they pack hunt.


mojo84 wrote:One of the reasons I contend it's a bad idea to unload your gun on the person you are engaging. Nothing worse than eliminating one threat and realizing you have other threats and an empty mag.


Excellent points :iagree:

WRG wrote:This comes from a person who often carries a .380, but this is probably a good argument for carrying a larger caliber. The larger caliber should stop the threat in fewer shots leaving you more rounds for the look out. Just thinking out loud.

Carry the largest caliber (and/or highest capacity) with which you're competent if you can, yes - often it's a trade-off, but awareness above all else is still king.
Remember Kitty Genovese

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Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
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There's nothing quite like the offer of 230 grains to a man's chest to remind him of his manners


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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby Deitz83 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:15 am

Beiruty wrote:Learn to control your fear and and train to drop 3-5 targets at 10 yards or less in 4 secs. Welcome to steel matches 101.
:iagree:

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Beiruty
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Re: Look Out for Lookouts

Postby Beiruty » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:07 pm

AndyC wrote:For the scariest heart-pounding experience, do it Man vs. Man style.

An old pic but here's my victory thumbs-up after taking on 40 guys and advancing to beat the top-shooter in the finals (who had a compensated Caspian 1911 race-gun with red-dot vs. me with my stock Rock Island 1911) in New Mexico 2008:

Image

He was actually the faster and better shooter - we shot 3 sequences (I won the first, he won the second so we did a tie-breaker) but he folded under the pressure of the last one. That's the lesson right there: great gear and great skills mean zip if you can't hold it together when it counts, as evidenced by his final plate still standing at the left. As Bill Jordan put it in his book - "No Second Place Winner".


All that is great and nice but the real thing is the deal breaker. Battle Shock would paralyze so many fresh meat. Or, so they do more often than they have too.
Beiruty,
United we stand, dispersed we falter
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