Church Liability

Links to various government agengices, resources & statutes, and non-governmental CHL-related links

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SJB
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Church Liability

Postby SJB » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:34 am

Does a church create liability issues by choosing to post or not to post the 30.06 or 30.07 notice?

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WildBill
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Re: Church Liability

Postby WildBill » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:35 am

SJB wrote:Does a church create liability issues by choosing to post or not to post the 30.06 or 30.07 notice?

Welcome to the forum SJB. Interesting first question.

IANAL, but I would say no. Not any more than any other property owner.
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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: Church Liability

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:15 pm

The general answer is no liability for the actions of a Licensee. There could be exceptions that typically apply only in an employee/employer scenario.

It's unlikely that there would be any liability for prohibiting concealed-carry, but this too has exceptions. If the church is in a high crime area or has had worshipers victimized before, the church could have liability for injuries or death if it didn't take reasonable steps to protect the congregation. Denying them the ability to defend themselves could be a factor.

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Re: Church Liability

Postby atx2a » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:27 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:The general answer is no liability for the actions of a Licensee. There could be exceptions that typically apply only in an employee/employer scenario.

It's unlikely that there would be any liability for prohibiting concealed-carry, but this too has exceptions. If the church is in a high crime area or has had worshipers victimized before, the church could have liability for injuries or death if it didn't take reasonable steps to protect the congregation. Denying them the ability to defend themselves could be a factor.

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Re: Church Liability

Postby imkopaka » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:49 am

I agree with Mr. Cotton, but would like to add one other scenario where trouble could arise. If you take it the opposite route of posting signs and instead the church staff puts together a security team or asks its members to carry, it can get the church in serious hot water if someone uses a firearm negligently - especially if the team is paid or considered "official" and they don't have the necessary security certification.

Not quite what you asked, OP, but it's the only other area I see where LTC issues can bring about church liability. :tiphat:
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WildBill
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Re: Church Liability

Postby WildBill » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:34 am

imkopaka wrote:I agree with Mr. Cotton, but would like to add one other scenario where trouble could arise. If you take it the opposite route of posting signs and instead the church staff puts together a security team or asks its members to carry, it can get the church in serious hot water if someone uses a firearm negligently - especially if the team is paid or considered "official" and they don't have the necessary security certification.

Not quite what you asked, OP, but it's the only other area I see where LTC issues can bring about church liability. :tiphat:

You are correct. This topic has been discussed several times on the forum. Most members are aware of this and have not made official security teams at their respective churches.

In addition to civil liability, I believe that the members of such a team could also be criminally charged for providing security without proper certification. IANAL
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Steve Lebe
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Re: Church Liability

Postby Steve Lebe » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:00 pm

Has anybody ever been charged, much less convicted, for carrying under their LTC while an unpaid volunteer for a neighborhood watch or church security group?

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Re: Church Liability

Postby AJSully421 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:34 pm

If an organization is looking for "the best way" to deal with these issues... Then a solid "no ask, no tell" policy regarding licensed concealed carry is the best way to go.

I have zero problem with a church not wanting OC.
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30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.

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Re: Church Liability

Postby rtschl » Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:44 pm

Steve Lebe wrote:Has anybody ever been charged, much less convicted, for carrying under their LTC while an unpaid volunteer for a neighborhood watch or church security group?


When I took my Lev III & IV security class for our church in 2010 we were told by our instructor that a church in Dallas was reported to DPS and ended up paying a fine for operating an illegal security company. I just tried to Google for it real quick but didn't find anything. However, DPS has an Opinion Summary on church security located here: https://www.dps.texas.gov/rsd/psb/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm. A church or person could be at risk if someone got mad and reported the church or if an incident occurs that requires LEO investigation. If it is revealed that the person/church was providing unlicensed security services then be prepared.

I know that Charles tried to get a bill through to exempt churches but it didn't get out of committee if I remember correctly. The security industry is staunchly opposed to a church exemption. It's sad because most small and medium churches cannot afford to hire security (in house or contract) or off duty LEO's. Churches should be allowed to organize armed volunteers.
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Re: Church Liability

Postby JerryK » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:04 pm

Has anybody ever been charged, much less convicted, for carrying under their LTC while an unpaid volunteer for a neighborhood watch or church security group?


There was one, in Florida I believe.
Last edited by JerryK on Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Soccerdad1995
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Re: Church Liability

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:25 pm

JerryK wrote:
Has anybody ever been charged, much less convicted, for carrying under their LTC while an unpaid volunteer for a neighborhood watch or church security group?


There was one, in Florida.


Are you sure he was charged with a crime for carrying? In addition to the other charges?
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Re: Church Liability

Postby JerryK » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:33 pm

No, he was charged with the more serious charge which is usually the case.


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Re: Church Liability

Postby JerryK » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:43 pm

abc
Last edited by JerryK on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ScottDLS
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Re: Church Liability

Postby ScottDLS » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:27 pm

rtschl wrote:
Steve Lebe wrote:Has anybody ever been charged, much less convicted, for carrying under their LTC while an unpaid volunteer for a neighborhood watch or church security group?


When I took my Lev III & IV security class for our church in 2010 we were told by our instructor that a church in Dallas was reported to DPS and ended up paying a fine for operating an illegal security company. I just tried to Google for it real quick but didn't find anything. However, DPS has an Opinion Summary on church security located here: https://www.dps.texas.gov/rsd/psb/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm. A church or person could be at risk if someone got mad and reported the church or if an incident occurs that requires LEO investigation. If it is revealed that the person/church was providing unlicensed security services then be prepared.

I know that Charles tried to get a bill through to exempt churches but it didn't get out of committee if I remember correctly. The security industry is staunchly opposed to a church exemption. It's sad because most small and medium churches cannot afford to hire security (in house or contract) or off duty LEO's. Churches should be allowed to organize armed volunteers.


Are there any churches that have licensed as security companies with the State? Of course this would require lots of money and probably a lot of insurance...and easier just to hire off duty LEO or a licensed company.

I thought I read somewhere that the LDS church (Mormons) have a very well trained, organized, and licensed security force, but that may be in Utah where the laws are different.

I've always been kind of interested in taking a Level III/IV and PPO cert, but I know that you can't actually work as such unless employed by a licensed security company.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Church Liability

Postby howdy » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:36 pm

My Church at one time was looking into this exact thing. Our Building Supervisor found a Texas Licence Security Company that would train Church Volunteers to a level IV security Officer rating, "hire" them and place them back at their home Church for a per hour fee. I just Googled this scenario and came up with this example. I have no affiliation with this company nor do I know of their reputation or business practices. I know we went with uniformed off duty LEO's.(we are a large church that can afford LEO's)
http://www.nocssm.org/gatekeepers-secur ... ices-texas

My Church had a VERY strong reaction from some members of the Church Council to members carrying firearms...trained, with level IV license or not. They did not have a problem with armed security officers who were not Church members. I failed to see the logic of this but we know how it is arguing guns to anti's.
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