IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby Skiprr » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:21 pm

Rhino1 wrote:I'd like to see HQ issue a good, side-by-side comparison of the rules changes. This would help both shooters and SO's. I thought the on-line SO exam with the last rule change was onerous. As I recall, there were 50 randomly generated questions out of possible 300. There was a time limit and 85% required to pass. With the "luck of the draw", I had a high number of esoteric questions requiring extensive thought on rule interpretation. Failed by one question. If you failed a second time, you were required to complete the entire SO certification class again. Didn't have any trouble the second time but got more realistic questions. I'd rather have 100 questions if they stay with the 85 requirement. I agree with Charles on the recertification. If next time is as difficult as last time, I'll let my SO certification lapse. I guess IDPA is loaded with plenty of certified, as opposed to local club trained, safety officers.

What you said; on a few points. I'm straying off topic, but I'll put away my soapbox quickly. Promise.

I'm not a lawyer but have for many years worked with rules and standards. For example, for a decade I served on a national committee that represented the U.S. opinion to the International Standards Organization on a couple of different standards, revisited annually. I am used to working with redlined documents, just like lawyers and legislators do. New text is underlined (and may be presented in a different color) and deletions are in strikethrough text. When I was committee chair, I presented one clear copy for ease of reading, but the redlined document was always, always the reference source, through every draft document, every nominated document, all the way until final version publication...and even then it's common make the last, approved redline version available for public reference.

Also--again for standards, not laws--a separate change control document accompanied every version of draft, nominated, and published documents. This document showed the section/item number and title for each substantive change, showed the redlined content from the current version of the master document, included as much explanation as necessary to explain the reason/rationale for the change, and the intended effective date.

That IDPA chose to do none of this common-practice method; version control and information was the real deal-killer for me.

I don't mind recertification testing all that much. I've been pretty used to it through much of my career. But, as to IDPA...

  1. Some sort of redlined version control is absolutely mandatory and must be made available for reference.
  2. Focus 85% or 90% of the test on what has changed, not on a pool of general questions also used by first-time certification testers. The two are not the same thing.
  3. Understand that the SOs are not employees of the IDPA and actually have a life: set realistic exam timing expectations. (When I opted to let my SO lapse in 2015, existing SOs were notified in waves, I believe by state/section. We were given a ridiculous deadline to complete the recert test, I believe it was 8 weeks. They were trying to balance the load hitting their servers for the testing. Texas was in the first segment to be tested, so we got the shortest time with the new rules before the clock started ticking. I was traveling extensively on business at the time and working long days and weekends. Even with well-managed redline versioning of the rules rewrite, it would have been challenging to complete the recert test by the deadline. Without a redline document, just the new rulebook to study from scratch, the expectation was stupendously ignorant.)
  4. Carefully construct the questions. Word (scenario/situation) problems are fine--so long as they have an unambiguous reference in the rules. I don't mind if these get tricky and require an "absolute best choice" selection. But if the question has a couple of equally, arguably-good answers and is dependent upon a subjective interpretation, throw that sucker out or change the grading scheme.
  5. Your SOs had the interest in growing the sport, and committed the time to take an in-person SO course and become certified. Respect and value them. Don't run them off. ("I guess IDPA is loaded with plenty of certified, as opposed to local club trained, safety officers." Precisely.)

</soapbox>
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby Rhino1 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:56 pm

Wow, if it's possible to hit a five run Grand Slam, you just did it! Great ideas. Think IDPA will listen?
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby Reds45ACP » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:49 pm

While I enjoy the PCC division as a concept it does not match with:

1.2.1 Equipment Principles - Allowed equipment will meet the following criteria:

1.2.1.1 Concealable - all equipment except flashlights will be placed so that, when wearing a concealment garment

with your arms extended to your sides and parallel to the ground, it cannot be seen from the front, rear, or sides.

1.2.1.2 Practical - Must be practical for all day concealed carry self-defense, and worn in a manner that is appropriate for all day continuous wear.

Also the spirit of IDPA which states: "Our main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual. Equipment that is designed with no application for daily, concealed carry is not permitted in this sport."

Currently I know of many people that are conceal-carrying a pistol with a slide mounted dot optic. At my local club we have seen an increase of NFC shooters shooting SSP/ESP/CCP legal pistols that have optics on them. Thus precluding them from competing at a regional or national level with the actual pistol they carry every day. This seems against the spirit of IDPA.

The reality is that Bill Wilson wants to sell more of his $2k PCC guns and he doesn't want to make 1911s that can take an optic.

Some of the other rules are a miss:

"Optional" cover lines. Make them manditory or don't include them at all.

Bug-R (revolver) is forced to 5 shots max. So now they actually can't shoot a classifier. Whoops.

Changing the size of the box for CCP and BUG left a bunch of shooters with thier cheese in the wind having guns that are no longer legal.

IDPA is a for profit group that can do as they see fit. I just know that I won't be renewing my membership this year and I won't be shooting anymore IDPA majors.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby Malawler » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:52 pm

Are .30 Carbine and 5.7x28 FN "pistol" cartridges?


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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby DanD » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:02 am

Malawler wrote:Are .30 Carbine and 5.7x28 FN "pistol" cartridges?


I would say it would be up to your Match Director if they would consider these rounds to be "pistol" cartridges. I base that on the finalized IDPA 2017 Rulebook that was recently released that removed all the language about the PCC division but allows PCC as an optional Specialty Division that your Match Director decides to allow or not. I'm sure someone more informed that I can give you a better answer.

The finalized rulebook has the PCC acronym only showing up 4 times and they don't even define what the PCC acronym is, oops. The words "pistol caliber carbine" show up only 2 times in the new rulebook as well. So PCC was essentially removed from the new rulebook.

Here is a podcast from Tactical Triangle about the IDPA 2017 rule changes that also includes a written summary.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby DanD » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:01 am

The 2017 IDPA rulebook was updated again and the latest version is 2017.2 and here is a link: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/4sig5pxx.mr1.pdf
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:04 pm

IDPA appears to be trying to self-destruct. I personally know four people who bought 9mm ARs to shoot PCC and I was shopping parts to build one. Then, the rule book changes yet again and PCC has been demoted to a "specialty division" that the MD may or may not choose to include in a match. Bait-and-switch is insulting when used by car dealers and IDPA HQ. Joyce is turning out to be a great recruiter for USPSA.

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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby DanD » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:25 pm

I got all excited about the new Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division that I went out and bought one. Now the released rulebook makes PCC nonexistent as a division. It makes no sense.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby CleverNickname » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:28 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Joyce is turning out to be a great recruiter for USPSA.

Exactly.

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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby BCGlocker » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:05 am

ELB wrote:This is interesting. I joined IDPA when it was brand spanking new in the early 1990s, when I was in California and taking my first serious pistol lessons from Mike Dalton. I don't remember if he was one of the actual founders or just an enthusiastic early proponent, but he was really pushing it. My recollection is that he and others felt IPSC and the other sports at the time were just that, and too much that; "that" being sports. Race guns and competition holsters, gamesmanship, competition tactics that won matches but were suicide for the street...and rules that changed every year.



Wow, I too started in the early 80's with Mike Dalton and Micky Fowler at ISI. He also got me started with IPSC and IDPA at Piru. I retired two years ago and moved to Texas too. Small world.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby Skiprr » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:47 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Joyce is turning out to be a great recruiter for USPSA.

Nepotism is seldom a beneficial thing in business.

My honest opinion is that Joyce simply didn't have the necessary background for that role. That she was extremely eager and perhaps even over-zealous didn't help. In fact, it hurt, a lot, because in a short period IDPA HQ seemed to devolve into less-than-organized chaos with way too much activity happening in a way too inefficient manner.

In the announcement yesterday of yet another modified version of the rulebook, they closed with this: "Minor formatting or spelling corrections will be ongoing but there will be no new rule updates."

A) I don't believe that. If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

B) Does that sound defensive, or what? You just know they've been getting hammered from all sides over the rules fiasco.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

Postby ELB » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:31 am

Tangent alert! :reddevil

BCGlocker wrote:Wow, I too started in the early 80's with Mike Dalton and Micky Fowler at ISI. He also got me started with IPSC and IDPA at Piru. I retired two years ago and moved to Texas too. Small world.


Lake Piru! It was a long drive for me, but that was a pretty active place when I was there. I was living in Los Angeles when I decided to get serious about guns for self-defense, and I took several courses from ISI. I was using my Dad's Model 19, so Mike recommended I check out the revolver club across the valley from his range. I joined the "Wheel Burners", learned to reload, and shot up about 10K .38 rounds per year while I was out there.

I moved to Texas (via Saudi Arabia) and retired here too.

Small world indeed.
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